A Muslim PhD student gets targeted as a security risk; now he wants to know why • Hacker News Board

Re: A Muslim PhD student gets targeted as a security risk; now he wants to know why

#31

Post by x0137294744532 » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 7:03 AM UTC

blabberer wrote: post #27

x0137294744532 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He voluntarily associates and culturally identifies with a group of people who are culturally incompatible with the country (Sharia, triple talaq,festivals which involve cutting goats on the road,etc) and are a threat to national security (a lot of terrorist attacks are after all funded by Muslim countries). According to this logic, by being a conservative american protestant, you culturally associate with westboro…

>strong believing hindu, you obviously culturally associate yourself with the massacre of muslims, and vice versa Hindus dont have religious literature (and Hindu countries dont have laws) against other religious. Muslims do, Muslim countries do. I dont know anything about Christianity though, but yes, I guess you do culturally associate with all churches if you are openly Christian and wear a cross at work,etc.

> Hindus dont have religious literature (and Hindu countries dont have laws) against other religious.

But hindus have the same culture. Going by your logic, every hindu culturally associate with the other hindus.

> but yes, I guess you do culturally associate with all churches if you are openly Christian and wear a cross at work,etc.

Then let me give you a more extreme implication of this logic:

By calling ourself openly human beings, we culturally associate with every other evil man since they are also human beings. Therefore, we are no better than the most evil man on earth.

Re: A Muslim PhD student gets targeted as a security risk; now he wants to know why

#32

Post by Cyph0n » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 7:06 AM UTC

blabberer wrote: post #26

throwaway613834 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> culturally incompatible with the country (festivals which involve cutting goats on the road) Uh... what ? Would sending drones from a country 7,000 miles away to silently drop bombs on your head be more "culturally compatible"?

MAy or may not be NSFW depending on where you work, but http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/dhaka-streets-b... They are a small percentage of the American population, but this is what their religious celebrations look like

I have celebrated Eid Al Adha in the UAE for at least 15 years and have never seen anything so gruesome before. That is definitely weird stuff!

Re: A Muslim PhD student gets targeted as a security risk; now he wants to know why

#33

Post by yokaze » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 7:07 AM UTC

gamechangr wrote: post #16

Cyph0n wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the point entirely. It's not about the "why", but rather the precedent it sets. > We DON"T have Radical Christians, Radical Hindus, Radicial Buddhist trying to blow up civilians. Ehh there are in fact radical Christians who kill innocents in the US. Radical Hindus and Buddhists also exist, but in other countries. > It does mean however that more specific attention should be paid to muslims, as they ar…

" there are in FACT radical christians who kill innocents in the Us?" Where? That doesn't sound credible, but let me give you the benefit of the doubt. Don't get 1 nut job...show me what you mean?

Read the United States Government Accountability Office: http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/683984.pdf

"Of the 85 violent extremist incidents that resulted in death since September 12, 2001, far right wing violent extremist groups were responsible for 62 (73 percent) while radical Islamist violent extremists were responsible for 23 (27 percent)."

Re: A Muslim PhD student gets targeted as a security risk; now he wants to know why

#34

Post by blabberer » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 7:12 AM UTC

x0137294744532 wrote: post #31

blabberer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>strong believing hindu, you obviously culturally associate yourself with the massacre of muslims, and vice versa Hindus dont have religious literature (and Hindu countries dont have laws) against other religious. Muslims do, Muslim countries do. I dont know anything about Christianity though, but yes, I guess you do culturally associate with all churches if you are openly Christian and wear a cross at work,etc.

> Hindus dont have religious literature (and Hindu countries dont have laws) against other religious. But hindus have the same culture. Going by your logic, every hindu culturally associate with the other hindus. > but yes, I guess you do culturally associate with all churches if you are openly Christian and wear a cross at work,etc. Then let me give you a more extreme implication of this logic: By calling ourself op…

>But hindus have the same culture. Going by your logic, every hindu culturally associate with the other hindus.

There is no text which codifies it, unlike Islam. So Hindu culture is much more fluid than Muslim which is written on paper

>By calling ourself openly human beings, we culturally associate with every other evil man since they are also human beings. Therefore, we are no better than the most evil man on earth.

Unlike religion, its not voluntary.

I would say a better analogy would be a white man associating himself with black gang culture by getting gold teeth, gold chains, tattoos,etc to a job. Which would probably get him rejected from the interview itself

Re: A Muslim PhD student gets targeted as a security risk; now he wants to know why

#35

Post by x0137294744532 » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 7:31 AM UTC

blabberer wrote: post #34

x0137294744532 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hindus dont have religious literature (and Hindu countries dont have laws) against other religious. But hindus have the same culture. Going by your logic, every hindu culturally associate with the other hindus. > but yes, I guess you do culturally associate with all churches if you are openly Christian and wear a cross at work,etc. Then let me give you a more extreme implication of this logic: By calling ourself op…

>But hindus have the same culture. Going by your logic, every hindu culturally associate with the other hindus. There is no text which codifies it, unlike Islam. So Hindu culture is much more fluid than Muslim which is written on paper >By calling ourself openly human beings, we culturally associate with every other evil man since they are also human beings. Therefore, we are no better than the most evil man on earth…

> There is no text which codifies it, unlike Islam.

Each sect has a different Quran, different Sharia, different precepts. There are massive differences in the way Islam is practiced across the world.

> Unlike religion, its not voluntary.

Imagine then someone who openly claims to be an artist and that creating art is a part of them. Would you say this person culturally associate with a murderer who kills "for art"? Both call themselves and associate with the artistic work.

> I would say a better analogy would be a white man associating himself with black gang culture by getting gold teeth, gold chains, tattoos,etc to a job.

I don't think that it is a good analogy, as that white man associate concretely to black gang culture.

A better analogy would be, a man who associate with black culture in general but gets rejected because his employer consider him to associate with black gang culture although he claims he doesn't.

Re: A Muslim PhD student gets targeted as a security risk; now he wants to know why

#36

Post by eesmith » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 7:56 AM UTC

dingo_bat wrote: post #2

The reason is very clear and simple: because he is a Muslim and terrorist attacks by Muslims are very common nowadays. The real question is how far are we willing to go to prevent terror attacks. Are we willing to let innocent people get harassed on a regular basis?

If that were the case - and the government position is that they do not discriminate on religion - then how did he get his airport job, security badge, and global entry card in the first place?

As written, your statement comes across as simple bigotry, and US laws make that sort of simple bigotry too hard to carry out on an institutional scale. (Complex and subtle bigotry is a different issue.)

You wrote "prevent terror attacks". Some of the terror attacks in the US which are not caused by Muslims include the 2017 Charlottesville attack, the mosque bombing in Bloomington, MN, the stabbing of Timothy Caughman, the 2016 shooting of Dallas police officers, and the 2015 Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooting.

What should we do to prevent future terror attacks like these?

Re: A Muslim PhD student gets targeted as a security risk; now he wants to know why

#37

Post by dingo_bat » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 8:43 AM UTC

eesmith wrote: post #36

dingo_bat wrote: post #2

The reason is very clear and simple: because he is a Muslim and terrorist attacks by Muslims are very common nowadays. The real question is how far are we willing to go to prevent terror attacks. Are we willing to let innocent people get harassed on a regular basis?

If that were the case - and the government position is that they do not discriminate on religion - then how did he get his airport job, security badge, and global entry card in the first place? As written, your statement comes across as simple bigotry, and US laws make that sort of simple bigotry too hard to carry out on an institutional scale. (Complex and subtle bigotry is a different issue.) You wrote "prevent ter…

> If that were the case - and the government position is that they do not discriminate on religion - then how did he get his airport job, security badge, and global entry card in the first place?

The government does not discriminate based on religion. That's why he got his security badge and job. This is not about discrimination at all. It's about anti-terrorist investigations and checks. It's a bit like you searching how to make bombs and then buying explosive chemicals in bulk will put you in a list. No discrimination has occurred.

> As written, your statement comes across as simple bigotry, and US laws make that sort of simple bigotry too hard to carry out on an institutional scale. (Complex and subtle bigotry is a different issue.)

That term is meaningless here. As I said, there is no religious persecution. It's just investigative agencies doing their job. I think they are being over-cautious in a lot of cases to the point of harassment of a significant number of innocent individuals. But I'd rule out any "bigotry" or discrimination.

> You wrote "prevent terror attacks". Some of the terror attacks in the US which are not caused by Muslims

Not relevant. The vast majority of international terrorist attacks are perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam. That's what I meant. Other terrorist attacks exist and must be protected against, but that is not what we're talking about here. We're talking about this particular method.

> What should we do to prevent future terror attacks like these?

There are many ways. Even though it's irrelevant here, I'll try to mention something. There are few patterns in a lot of mass shootings in the US. All of these can be used to initiate pre emptive investigations on a suspected individual, even though she hasn't done anything yet. Similar to the case mentioned in the article, this can also lead to harassment of a large number of innocents.

Re: A Muslim PhD student gets targeted as a security risk; now he wants to know why

#38

Post by dingo_bat » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 8:45 AM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #3

dingo_bat wrote: post #2

The reason is very clear and simple: because he is a Muslim and terrorist attacks by Muslims are very common nowadays. The real question is how far are we willing to go to prevent terror attacks. Are we willing to let innocent people get harassed on a regular basis?

You don't seem to be surprised by the content of the article. May I ask what your stance is on the issue of further marginalizing Muslims living in America? I am a Tunisian-American Muslim by the way.

Are you surprised? Did you really think this has not been happening since 9/11? If yes, you are being naive.

Re: A Muslim PhD student gets targeted as a security risk; now he wants to know why

#39

Post by Yetanfou » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 9:11 AM UTC

x0137294744532 wrote: post #35

blabberer wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But hindus have the same culture. Going by your logic, every hindu culturally associate with the other hindus. There is no text which codifies it, unlike Islam. So Hindu culture is much more fluid than Muslim which is written on paper >By calling ourself openly human beings, we culturally associate with every other evil man since they are also human beings. Therefore, we are no better than the most evil man on earth…

> There is no text which codifies it, unlike Islam. Each sect has a different Quran, different Sharia, different precepts. There are massive differences in the way Islam is practiced across the world. > Unlike religion, its not voluntary. Imagine then someone who openly claims to be an artist and that creating art is a part of them. Would you say this person culturally associate with a murderer who kills "for art"? B…

> Each sect has a different Quran, different Sharia, different precepts

Uhhhh no. The koran is the koran is the koran. Written in Arabic, not a single letter to be changed because it is 'perfect' according to itself [1]:

   And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice.
   None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

The Hadith are another story, not so much their contents but which ones are followed.

[1] http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=6&verse=115

Re: A Muslim PhD student gets targeted as a security risk; now he wants to know why

#40

Post by eesmith » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 9:33 AM UTC

dingo_bat wrote: post #37

eesmith wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were the case - and the government position is that they do not discriminate on religion - then how did he get his airport job, security badge, and global entry card in the first place? As written, your statement comes across as simple bigotry, and US laws make that sort of simple bigotry too hard to carry out on an institutional scale. (Complex and subtle bigotry is a different issue.) You wrote "prevent ter…

> If that were the case - and the government position is that they do not discriminate on religion - then how did he get his airport job, security badge, and global entry card in the first place? The government does not discriminate based on religion. That's why he got his security badge and job. This is not about discrimination at all. It's about anti-terrorist investigations and checks. It's a bit like you searchin…

"It's about anti-terrorist investigations and checks. It's a bit like you searching how to make bombs and then buying explosive chemicals in bulk will put you in a list. No discrimination has occurred."

Except that we know that people get put on the list by accident and out of spite. (https://www.wired.com/2014/02/no-fly-coverup/ and https://www.democracynow.org/2014/4/24/muslim_americans_accu... ).

You write "checks" but checks need balances. Where is the balance here, and is it effective? Was he denied his due process rights? I think so.

"No discrimination has occurred."

How would you know if discrimination has or hasn't occurred? None of this information is public and there's very little oversight.

The State of Texas said that its voter ID laws were not discriminatory. A judge, after receiving far more information than we know about the various US watch lists, disagreed, and granted a permanent injunction against it.