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Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

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Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#131

Post by nkkollaw »

kbr wrote: post #79
nkkollaw wrote: post #78

Looks good, but a slight improvement in speed is not enough IMHO to switch from a proven, popular framework (like React or Vue). I think it takes a radical take on the problem to balance out the cons of using an unproven framework for any non-personal project.

It's 7kb minified and gzipped. Vue is almost 30kb. If you use a runtime version of Moon, it becomes 3kb. This makes it faster to load on mobile devices. Along with that, it also has lots of official plugins similar to what Vue provides.

Sure, don't get me wrong—I'm not saying it's useless or it isn't an achievement.

You have to realize though that as developers we invest a lot of time on learning a technology. Companies invest a lot of money into stacks. It's not always easy to find developers and if your stack is "standard", it makes it easier to both grow your team and get up to speed with the code.

For a developer, company, or team, 23KB of JavaScript aren't going to be a very good incentive to ignore the advantages that come with using a standard framework like Vue. Websites are easily 10MB in size nowadays, 23KB are a drop in the ocean. I can optimize the logo and get 23KB without have my team learn a whole new framework.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think "smaller Vue alternative" is a good selling point. If anything, because as your framework gains acceptance people will want more features, and it will inevitably grow, and there goes your competitive advantage.

It should do something better, or differently in a big way or a way people care about.

Just my two cents. I've never created anything that a huge number of people use, so I'm no institution in this area.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#132

Post by myhf »

nkkollaw wrote: post #78

Looks good, but a slight improvement in speed is not enough IMHO to switch from a proven, popular framework (like React or Vue). I think it takes a radical take on the problem to balance out the cons of using an unproven framework for any non-personal project.

How can you consider a framework "proven" when frameworks add new bugs as fast as they fix old ones?

It's the API that's proven.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#133

Post by jbergstroem »

iansowinski wrote: post #92

So we are here. It didn't took so long for vue to go from "will vue be new react ?" To "vuejs alternative".

Just because something exists doesn't mean one has to care. The problem with "frontend fatigue" is similar to what we see elsewhere; caring about problems one doesn't have or own in the first place. I'm not addressing you specifically (as your comment seems more observatory) - but I reckon it's still worth pointing out.

Let the curious create and share their creation with the world.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#134

Post by anon764587 »

I've lurked a while and seen people give all the js is shit js fatigue blah blah and again we have this on this.

question I've got to ask to people posing this question is are you not adaptable enough as a programmer to learn things fast?...I was a c# programmer and in 1 month it was like yeah no problem I understand the new tools. in fact the new frameworks taught me a lot about functional programming which was fantastic.

You can winge all you want but it's here. It's not going away due to corp IE9 and to be honest it annoys me because the js ecosystem as well is the nearest to open source ideals at the moment as a lot of people are sharing code. I can fix any bug in my dependency because I can read the source.

Yeah maybe some packages are useless. but tbh they're the ones that will sink to the floor but the good ideas are passed about like a zep cd. js is the first meme language (in the Dawkins sense) and it's extremely interesting to see it develop in the public eye

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#135

Post by photojosh »

baybal2 wrote: post #122
justinclift wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly (to me), the AngularJS (1.x.x) repo on GitHub is still receiving a decent level of commits: https://github.com/angular/angular.js/commits/master Kind of glad about that, as it's what I'm still using. :)

1.x has ultra solid support from business software industry. It will for long remain "the COBOL of the web"

I have yet to do anything on my webapp that uses a JS framework (the minimal interactivity is raw JS and at most a touch of jQuery) precisely because I've yet to see a framework that I was somewhat confident would be relatively stable over the long term, say 10 years?

Something like "COBOL for the web" would be ideal. But if I were starting now I wouldn't choose Angular 1.x, would I? Any recommendations.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#136

Post by swlkr »

If your web app is highly interactive and has a very complex user interface with lots of animations and small http requests you would be well served to use React, vue or this thing.

If your web app doesn't have that, which I imagine the majority do not, don't use any client side framework at all. Javascript still works, even without a framework.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#137

Post by carc1n0gen »

photojosh wrote: post #135
baybal2 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.x has ultra solid support from business software industry. It will for long remain "the COBOL of the web"

I have yet to do anything on my webapp that uses a JS framework (the minimal interactivity is raw JS and at most a touch of jQuery) precisely because I've yet to see a framework that I was somewhat confident would be relatively stable over the long term, say 10 years? Something like "COBOL for the web" would be ideal. But if I were starting now I wouldn't choose Angular 1.x, would I? Any recommendations.

I would. But that's only because it's what I've used at work for 2 years and I'm very confident with it now

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#138

Post by Moru »

bartread wrote: post #121
hashbig wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it a fun time to be a front-end developer?

No: it leaves no goat unblown. Particularly for people new to it. Back in the day anyone could hack together a bit of JS for their website and get something up and running, even if it was a bit Heath Robinson. You actually still can do this but you wouldn't necessarily come away with that impression from reading about front-end development. Cynically, it sometimes feels like front-end developers are overcompensating…

When you code something, choose the most strict browser/compiler you can. Then you get it right the first time and don't have to see it break so much later when tested elsewhere.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#139

Post by kbr »

johnfn wrote: post #125
kbr wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. It would actually have been more difficult to submit a PR to Vue, as Moon's internals are completely different. It would have tons of breaking changes as well, so I created a new project as a result.

Not knocking on your effort here, but you think that it would have taken more effort to submit a PR to Vue than building an entirely new open source framework from scratch over the course of several years? If so, there is something very wrong with the state of open source development.

Working on Vue would take similar effort, deleting tons of the code and rewriting it.

Part of it is that this is project started as a way for me to learn what goes on under the hood of libraries like React and Vue. While I made this, I wrote a compiler (lex + parse + generate), virtual DOM engine, reactivity system, and more!

I've started to take Moon in a different direction than Vue, and in the future it will most likely be even more different than Vue.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#140

Post by yawaramin »

bartread wrote: post #121
hashbig wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it a fun time to be a front-end developer?

No: it leaves no goat unblown. Particularly for people new to it. Back in the day anyone could hack together a bit of JS for their website and get something up and running, even if it was a bit Heath Robinson. You actually still can do this but you wouldn't necessarily come away with that impression from reading about front-end development. Cynically, it sometimes feels like front-end developers are overcompensating…

> ... front-end developers are overcompensating for years of JS derision from "real" programmers....

More like compensating for JavaScript's very real shortcomings.

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