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The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

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Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#141

Post by ylem »

clairity wrote: post #75

the real issue, unanswered by the article, is why didn't linsen li get job offers here? because the premise that we want to keep all the smart people here to generate more economic value for "us" rather than "them" is hard to disfavor. 1. was he deficient in some way that makes him unsuitable for the job? 2. did the university not provide the needed skills for the teaching positions he was applying for? 3. is the sup…

Let's say you apply for a faculty position at a good public university. In physics, it would not be uncommon for there to be around 200 applicants. Imagine that only say 50 of them are great...Teaching positions are also competitive. That's one level. Now, the US is in an enviable position of being able to skim top people from around the world who come here to study--so we end up with a huge competition for a small pool of positions. The notion being that all other things being equal, having a large candidate pool is more likely to result in stronger candidates. That's what we risk giving up by limiting immigration--especially after we (I am from the US) train people here to do research.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#142

Post by alkonaut »

Xylakant wrote: post #119
danmaz74 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well in Europe you usually get your 2 weeks Are there EU nations that give so little paid vacation? At least in the West, I think at least 3 weeks (non contiguous) is the norm...

In Europe 4 weeks of PTO is the minimum by law IIRC. I'm inclined to think the parent meant "2 continuous weeks" (I'd have to check but AFAIK at least in germany your employer has to grant that as well, either by law or by court interpretation of the law. Take this with a grain of salt, no legal advice, yadda yadda...)

It varies. Most importantly the "good countries" have 5-6 weeks plus all sick days, bank holidays etc.

That is, you get at least 5W in summer (typically).

The uk for exemple I think has 28days pto as a minimum, but as bank holidays count against those 28, it's hard to get a long holiday.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#143

Post by mbroncano »

derping69 wrote: post #17
CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

Europe is able to do this because the US subsidizes their existence. 1. Pharma companies develop drugs with US subsidies and make their profits off US citizens while European countries put price ceilings on their drugs. 2. US essentially defends the world, allowing other countries to spend money elsewhere. http://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe-...

No, it obviously doesn't, unless of course you think the US manages to lead the world by acting against its own interests.

In addition, and as far as agitprop goes, this particular argument begs the question: if this is the case, why are we doing it in the first place?

This kind of juvenile ideology, claiming some pretended affront to some national interest to justify some weakly supported exceptionalism and eventually supremacism, is old as the world. As I don't want to invoke Godwin so early in the afternoon, I'll just mention this is also quite a popular theme amongst wife beaters.

A significant segment of the US population is following a well known path for all of those acquantied with early 20th century European history. It's only that the US is still catching up with all that, being such a young nation, and not having been vaccinated against fascism like pretty much most of the old world. It's gonna get rough I'm afraid.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#144

Post by alkonaut »

ecshafer wrote: post #104
danmaz74 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well in Europe you usually get your 2 weeks Are there EU nations that give so little paid vacation? At least in the West, I think at least 3 weeks (non contiguous) is the norm...

In the us, I get 4 weeks and can take it basically however I want. I can choose to get 5 weeks by buying it. Depending on my team I might not be able to take the month leading up to taxes off, but a month off is easily done and happens often.

I have 25 days in Sweden and my UK colleagues 28 days, but they still envy me because of how my 5w are mine to choose and aren't used up on bank holidays etc. When summer comes I usually have 4-5w off and they have 2 or 3.

Having to use pto for sick days also doesn't happen anywhere in the EU.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#145

Post by ylem »

ptero wrote: post #30
wightnoise wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's less about visas and more about jobs. Why aren't their more research jobs? Why isn't the govt doing more to bolster research and create opportunity for talented minds?

Government funding for research is important, especially for the pure science, but government should not blindly increase funding because some people are not finding academic jobs. With the (IMO pretty broken) tenure system in the US, research-track academic jobs can be very lucrative and with many researchers un-fireable regardless of what they do academically makes research both more expensive (folks goofing off) a…

I'm curious, what makes you think that people are goofing off? I suffer from selection bias, but most of the tenured faculty (in the sciences) that I know are extremely driven people who work nights and weekends...Have you seen any studies that would suggest otherwise? As for lucrative, I'm still biased, but I would say that academic jobs can be comfortable financially, especially given the stability of tenure, but outside of superstars, I wouldn't say that they are outside the range of say a software engineer...

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#146

Post by ylem »

stevenwoo wrote: post #28
SubiculumCode wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I can't get a research position in the States, but can in Europe, that is a problem.

How does the job market for research positions and potential employee pool in the States versus Europe compare?

My impression is that it's rather difficulty in a number of European countries as well. Chatting with friends, it seems that there are a number of term positions in countries like Germany, but permanent positions are hard to come by.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#147

Post by logfromblammo »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #96
robotresearcher wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Einstein, von Braun, Musk, Brin. Immigrants are more than cheap labor. edit just for a bit more diversity: Madeleine Albright, Schwarzenegger, Ang Lee, Tesla, Fermi, Audrey Hepburn, Sataya Nadella, Jerry Yang, Cary Grant... edit 2, correction: Ang Lee's Wikipedia page says he's a resident and not a US citizen. Another alien undercutting US labour like James Cameron and Ridley Scott.

the standard, American theoretical response to an individual with a low standard of living is: "lack of talent is not the problem. lack of education is. these individuals simply need more education in order to access better opportunities." one might argue, on a national level, that because lack of education -- not talent -- is the true limiting factor, there are plenty of existing US residents who are capable of fill…

Now, see, there's your problem right there.

Americans don't worry about whether a theory is correct. We worry about how much money can be made by believing in it.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#148

Post by robotresearcher »

amag wrote: post #139
sol_remmy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60k in Sweden: 30k after tax 60k in U.S.: 40k after tax

According to my calculations 60k in Sweden would land you some 43k after taxes. At 60k the progressive taxes in Sweden are just starting to hurt. Somewhere north of 80k, it starts to feel like you only work for the government...

If you don't understand how progressive taxation works, maybe. High taxes on the marginal dollar after your middle-class life expenses are met isn't so bad.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#149

Post by amag »

dv_dt wrote: post #50
derping69 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is able to do this because the US subsidizes their existence. 1. Pharma companies develop drugs with US subsidies and make their profits off US citizens while European countries put price ceilings on their drugs. 2. US essentially defends the world, allowing other countries to spend money elsewhere. http://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe-...

Drug makers spend more in marketing than R&D, and I strongly suspect that most of their marketing dollars are spent in the US. So all we're really subsidising is more marketing to doctors via our high cost health care system. http://www.randalolson.com/2015/03/01/design-critique-puttin...

This was very apparent to me when recently on a visit in the US. There were a lot more TV commercials for different kinds of drugs than I'm used to. Ironically the required(?) list of potential side effects at the end of each ad often sounded worse than the condition the drug was supposed to treat in the first place.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#150

Post by corporateslave3 »

dv_dt wrote: post #78
corporateslave3 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No just an oversupply of people that really arent smart enough to push their fields forwards, they are just highly "educated". PHDs at average schools can be done by most people willing to put in long hours, we need to stop conflating these "highly educated" people with actual ingenuity. Capitalism rightly casts them off to the side.

I maintain that the biggest inefficiency of how we practice capitalism today is that it is casting aside the ability for people to contribute to society to their full potential. And as we advance economically, it seems that inefficiency is expanding to more and more people.

Inefficiency compared to what?

Look at what capitalism has done to standards of living and life expectancy across the world over the last 100 years. In terms of the quality of human life, it is so staggering how effective capitalism has been. I think your view point of certain people being disadvantaged with regards to our current form of capitalism is short sighted. Sure, some physics phd may not be fully utilized, but that is at the cost of a system that is changing the world for the better.

What we are arguing is whether forcefully changing the inefficiencies (how do we even know they are inefficiencies? We dont. We can only speculate) you see in capitalism would help society overall. But that is like saying in the course of human evolution, we need to enforce mating rules to "change the course", sure we could do that, but how impossible is it? Would it even help? Are we even smart enough to figure that out?

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