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VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

reuters.com

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Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#111

Post by quakeguy »

ythn wrote: post #101
rurban wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but will the executives involved be held to the same legal standard Yes, they will, but Germany will not extradite them. They already made that clear. And it is very unlikely that the german court system will prosecute them. Haven't heard anything yet, because this might inflict the politicians who backed this Diesel emission testing system for decades. They didn't even go to the technical root yet. Only one made t…

> And it is very unlikely that the german court system will prosecute them. Germany is cool that its citizens conducted international fraud at a scale the world has never seen?

And the US is cool with "rolling coal" because....

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#112

Post by snarf21 »

jamesred wrote: post #24

Shouldn’t there be a distinction between the person writing the code and the person who chooses to use the code? An engineer shouldn’t be responsible for knowing the law and doesn’t have access to corporate lawyers that executives do. You could argue that there are legitimate reasons to write code that’s illegal for research purposes but never implemented. Why should an engineer be responsible for that?

That is the whole slippery slope of plausible deniability. An engineer doesn't know every nuance of the law but some people had to actively know they were breaking the law. Those people should be punished, regardless of their level.

I'm in favor on increased whistle blower programs. There were lots of people who knew what was going at Enron and VW and others. If companies are morally bankrupt and think of profits at all costs, we should reward the grunts who can expose it.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#113

Post by s73ver_ »

jamesred wrote: post #24

Shouldn’t there be a distinction between the person writing the code and the person who chooses to use the code? An engineer shouldn’t be responsible for knowing the law and doesn’t have access to corporate lawyers that executives do. You could argue that there are legitimate reasons to write code that’s illegal for research purposes but never implemented. Why should an engineer be responsible for that?

I would argue that he should have known that it is highly likely that any code would end up being used, despite how much they're told it's "for research" or a "prototype".

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#114

Post by Geekette »

tyingq wrote: post #74
Geekette wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doubtful. He made his decisions as an adult, fully aware of what was right/legal - he could have refused but chose not to.

True, they did make a choice. The nuance I'm interested in is whether a person in this situation would reasonably assume they would lose their job, or promotion opportunities, etc, if they didn't do the illegal task as asked. And if so, does that create a civil liability?

"The nuance I'm interested in is whether a person in this situation would reasonably assume they would lose their job, or promotion opportunities, etc, if they didn't do the illegal task as asked. And if so, does that create a civil liability?"

If so, then the expected response would be for that person to whistleblow and/or establish an EEOC complaint or lawsuit for perceived retaliation. Going along with wrongdoing when there's no immediate danger to his life or even arguably livelihood (as a high-ranking engineering exec, he could probably find another gig easily) isn't a defensible position.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#115

Post by s73ver_ »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #69
vmarsy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is already such incentives for companies defrauding the government [1] : "Qui tam" where the whistleblower can receive "between 15% and 25% of any award or settlement amount" on cases like this seems to be a pretty huge incentive. Look at the "Example" section in [1]: - 2009 : [...] was awarded $51.5 million for his role as a whistleblower 102 million that was distributed between the six whistleblowers [...] wh…

seems little for a lifetime of unemployment

Why would you be unwilling to hire someone who's demonstrated that they're an ethical person?

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#116

Post by bitL »

maxerickson wrote: post #102
bitL wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a hyperbole; anyway, his current position is irrelevant, important is what positions he held while developing this software (which was deployed for many years). Article mentions "Liang is still employed by Volkswagen but no longer works as an engineer".

The article I got that from was from when he entered his plea, I'm pretty sure it is describing the role he had that was related to the charges. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-09/veteran-v...

I remember when this erupted first; VW management immediately started talking about "rogue engineers" adding such a functionality and promised punishing them. There was uproar over it here on HN if you look back.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#117

Post by zimbu668 »

quakeguy wrote: post #111
ythn wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And it is very unlikely that the german court system will prosecute them. Germany is cool that its citizens conducted international fraud at a scale the world has never seen?

And the US is cool with "rolling coal" because....

In July 2014, the United States Environmental Protection Agency stated that the practice was illegal, as it violated the Clean Air Act which prohibits the manufacturing, sale, and installation "of a part for a motor vehicle that bypasses, defeats, or renders inoperative any emission control device [and] prohibits anyone from tampering with an emission control device on a motor vehicle by removing it or making it inoperable prior to or after the sale or delivery to the buyer."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal#Legality

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#118

Post by wl »

quakeguy wrote: post #106
okreallywtf wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why will they not, do they fear they will not get a fair trial in the US or will be punished worse than their crimes dictate?

In the land of "rolling coal" (0.0), and no TÜV+AU (0),(1), any sudden punishment of violators from outside reeks of market protection. (0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_Überwachungsverein (1) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abgasuntersuchung (non english WP link, basically it means "emission checking") Edit: (0.0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal

There's a big difference between a few rednecks illegally modifying their personal vehicles and a company selling millions of vehicles that fail emissions standards and trying to cover it up.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#119

Post by yourapostasy »

21 wrote: post #104
tyingq wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, they did make a choice. The nuance I'm interested in is whether a person in this situation would reasonably assume they would lose their job, or promotion opportunities, etc, if they didn't do the illegal task as asked. And if so, does that create a civil liability?

I doubt it. Losing a job is not an excuse to do illegal tasks, especially when you have a senior well payed job and are not exactly scraping by. In some cases you might even be required to report such illegal requests to some authority.

> In some cases you might even be required to report such illegal requests to some authority.

That's absurdly naive of the laws. At this level of management and up, these requests are not passed along in a traceable, litigable form, unless you have spectacularly unaware executives performing the demands. Look how far out of hand it had to get at Wells Fargo before there was action, and how long it took at VW before there was any sort of action.

Also, anyone with mediocre Internet searching skills can see the egregiously poor track record of whistleblowers' treatment everywhere. Unless you already are set up with your FU money, you'll die of starvation before seeing any justice in most cases.

Legislators and prosecutors need lessons in how these policies are enacted and implemented in the real world to actually catch this form of malfeasance. They need to catch the equivalent of Frank Abagnale who performs these kinds of misdeeds, gets caught, and teaches law enforcement and legislators how to actually nab others like him. Until then, they're just blind pigs accidentally stumbling upon truffles while going to take a piss.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Abagnale

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#120

Post by alkonaut »

bitmapbrother wrote: post #103

I was watching a german program on the VW scandal and was surprised to learn that the German government allowed VW to issue a software patch to correct the problem instead of offering to repair or compensate owners for the cars they purchased. Even with the software patch the vehicles still released emissions that were well above the norm. Also, I don't believe any VW executives have ever been charged in Germany.

I was also very curious how they managed to get my '09 "fixed" somehow via a simple software patch. I would have understood it if it had lost 20% performance or got 20% higher fuel consumption - but that didn't happen.

So: if it was that easy to fix legally why did they cheat in the first place??

Of course it can't be that easy. So of course my car is still polluting over the limit. And I think this is a story that isn't getting the coverage it needs. A proper fix for my car would have been to install an AdBlue system into it, at great cost. Had they been forced to do that - or buy back the car - they would be in serious financial trouble.

That also answers why the German government is giving them some leeway here: it's not exactly in their interest to kill Volkswagen.

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