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As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

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Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#231

Post by freshhawk »

calvinbhai wrote: post #137
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

I agree with all the points you made, except for a part of the third one. This "started coding in middle/high school or college" is a misleading metric since it assumes everyone has equal access and support to learn that way. As some one from India who never had own computer until finishing college (the early 00's), along with no internet or cell phone, I find it hard to accept/respect those people who gloat about ho…

I don't think it's misleading at all. It is unfair, it is an outgrowth of privilege.

The issues with diversity, prejudice and bias would be much easier if there weren't cases where something was both unjust and true. Software development is one of those activities where experience is helpful, so those who start earlier are generally better.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#233

Post by sidlls »

stale2002 wrote: post #78
gaius wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no STEM shortage and hasn't been for decades. Unemployment for CS grads in the UK is 14% according to the Graun (other sources have it at only 13%). And these people want to charge you a fortune claiming they can teach you better than a 3-year degree in a few weeks.

Then how come our salaries are so high in the bay area? There is certainly a geographic shortage at least, right? Perhaps those people in the UK need to move to a location where their skills are more in demand.

First, our salaries aren't high compared to the value we generate for these companies.

Second, the relatively higher salaries we get out here are driven by two things: 1) the number of companies competing for talent and 2) the artificial scarcity induced by how they define the arena of competition (over-focus on "CS fundamentals" and under-focus on engineering fundamentals).

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#234

Post by _devise »

trowawee wrote: post #50
gfodor wrote: post #47

Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process. Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get…

Why would I believe, as a bootcamp grad, that you're going to be able to put aside your already-admitted bias when I make it to the table for the interview, or if I make it through the hiring process? Why would I want to work with a coworker who thinks "their resume looks great, but they're a bootcamp grad, so it must be a lie"? How can I be confident that you won't throw some bullshit about me being a bootcamp grad…

In my area, I have had recruiters specifically tell me that they will not list junior positions because of the hiring market being completely oversaturated with bootcamp graduates. I have had several tell me something along the lines of "this is listed as a mid-to-senior level position, but that is just to keep bootcampers from applying".

Without any commentary on whether you can be skilled/productive/knowledgeable after a bootcamp program, it CAN hurt your odds to list it on your resume. A former employer of mine was burned so bad by a string of bad hires they say they will never work with bootcampers again. Anecdotally I have observed that bootcamps tend to have their own tight-knit networks of alumni or companies willing to hire from a given camp, so I can't comment toward the net effect (whether it's better not to list the bootcamp on your resume at all), but I can guarantee you there are employers who want nothing to do with you if your primary education and experience are from a bootcamp, as misguided as that may be.

The person you are responding to makes a reasonable point that if an employer cares about productivity, then what you can accomplish on your own and what you actually know and understand should be emphasized. They may perceive that applicants whose primary self-advertised selling point is "I went to Einstein-Hawking Ruby Camp" may not have anything unique/valuable to offer for a given role because they seem identical to many other applicants from that same place, some/many of whom may have underperformed. I would recommend not developing a chip on your shoulder about it.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#235

Post by jogjayr »

atom-morgan wrote: post #172
calvinbhai wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with all the points you made, except for a part of the third one. This "started coding in middle/high school or college" is a misleading metric since it assumes everyone has equal access and support to learn that way. As some one from India who never had own computer until finishing college (the early 00's), along with no internet or cell phone, I find it hard to accept/respect those people who gloat about ho…

> but without fixing this attitude of "earlier you learn, better you are" attitude This mindset seems to work rather well for more objective areas like athletics. I don't see any reason why an intellectual pursuit like programming would be any different.

Some possible reasons why:

1. Athletic performance is easy to measure. Especially for individual sports (track and field, gymnastics, weightlifting) the numbers are the only way to compare athletes. Not so for programming. If someone invented a way to definitively judge programming ability today they'd become very rich, very soon.

2. If we assume that mastery of programming follows a sigmoid-curve (not an unreasonable assumption, IMO) it means that the ability difference in "coding for X years" and "coding for X + 5 years" becomes nearly indistinguishable for some value of X, for people of roughly similar innate ability and drive to improve. And if you believe in innate ability, then there will certainly be people who came to the field late and caught up with, or surpassed, less-innately-talented colleagues who have been programming longer.

3. One of the reasons that starting at an early age is important in athletics is because peak performance is harder and harder after you turn 30. The "growth" phase has to be therefore significantly accelerated. There's also evidence that for technical sports requiring motor coordination (eg. soccer), learning young is better. Whereas people can code at peak level until the day they die, assuming no other illnesses.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#236

Post by upvotinglurker »

roel_v wrote: post #88
dwrench07 wrote: post #6

Current Data Science Student at Galvenize in Phoenix here. I came from a mix of technologies (approximate knowledge, but a master of none) before settling into the data sciences (Python ecosystem). Galvenize has been precisely the challenge I was looking for and so much more. I barely got by the interview process, but picked up a Veteran Scholarship worth half my $16,000 tuition along the way. Quit my job as a Salesf…

"There is a Physics PhD, undergrads in Mathematics and Physics, an acctuary Statistician from an insurance company, a Mom, and Biology grad, and a Veteran. An elclectic group I feel." How can this work? I mean, I can understand those with a math background being there to learn the tooling and programming, but how can a mom (presumably with no prior education?) and a vet (also presumably without any other qualificatio…

It's implied that the vet is the commenter themselves ("picked up a Veteran Scholarship worth half my $16,000 tuition"), who "came from a mix of technologies (approximate knowledge, but a master of none)" - hardly "no qualifications."

There's no reason to assume the mom isn't similar (many stay-at-home mothers in the US have college degrees).

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#237

Post by [deleted] »

larzang wrote: post #118
Alacart wrote: post #80

Who gives a shit where or how you learned to code. What a stupid and indirect way to filter candidates. Just show me what you've done. Send me repo links, production code, or even just the end result with some sort of proof that you actually built it. That's the best part about any craft - practicing or building something creates tangible results. If you don't already have a portfolio, get to work on that before you…

That's great for front-end guys, but it's frustrating to me as a back-end developer to have expectations that I can show live examples of my past work to potential employers when I've spent years designing and building enterprise internal systems which have no visible result outside of the code itself, which is under strict NDA. I get it, development is a craft, it's easy to judge the quality or experience level of a…

[deleted]

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#238

Post by jasode »

ghaff wrote: post #228
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not his point. No one expects a chemical engineering 1st year student to have mastered organic chemistry already. Just as no one expects a 1st year mechanical engineering student to thoroughly understand rigid body dynamics at age 10. Yea maybe they built an RC plane or did some home experiments, but if anyone is doing these things at a young age they are clearly far above their peers. > Andrew Wiles Example h…

Quite a few comments on this thread should be required reading for anyone seeking to understand some of the cultural "shortcomings" of the software industry generally and the software industry in Silicon Valley specifically. This idea that not having had an all-consuming for programming since childhood and not maintaining an active Github account for all your side projects means that we don't want your kind is toxic.

>This idea that not having had an all-consuming for programming since childhood and not maintaining an active Github account for all your side projects means that we don't want your kind is toxic.

Then you are not aware of the toxic comments from your peers who agree with you.

To recap...

Group 1: programming-is-just-a-job -- the majority -- The programmers who want to compartmentalize their programming strictly to 40-hours work week so they can have a life outside of computers. Programming is just a means to an end. Programming is just the paycheck that feeds my family. Great! There's nothing wrong with you! You outnumber the programmers who view it as an artistic endeavor and self-actualization.

Group 2: programming-is-my-vocation -- the minority -- The programmers who got into as kids and find joy in side projects after hours & the weekends.

It's not enough for these 2 groups to peacefully coexist. It's also not enough that Group 1 outnumbers Group 2. It's also not enough that most cog-in-wheel corporate programming jobs don't even value Group 2's enthusiasm for programming.

No, Group 1 is not satisfied with the above advantages. Group 1 is very annoyed if Group 2 programmers prefer working with other Group 2 programmers. G1 derides G2 as psychologically defective or unbalanced. E.g see HN poster (gyardley)[1] describing them as an "obsessive wretch" and "not an asset". Toxic indeed.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14973898

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#239

Post by GrinningFool »

orclev wrote: post #211
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

As someone who both interviewed bootcampers, and also partnered with a local bootcamp (IronYard) this is pretty much exactly my experience. The bootcamps can take someone who had an interest in programming before hand, and give them a fast leg up to get into programming professionally, and that's great. But the vast majority of people in these programs are just there because they heard you can make a lot of money as…

India had similar code academy type institutions in the 90s (don't know if they still do) and they gave pretty much the same results. A very small percentage who "get it" and could think their way through a logical problem in a logical way; and a majority - those there strictly to find the path to a well-paying job - who could write code to the exact specification you provided, but with no independent thought.

Only difference is that then, the token technologies used for study were out of MS's desktop stack.

Source: worked with lots of outsourcing/offshore partners out of India during that time...

edit: I should also add that in the US the same could be observed: uptick in CS grads who only started out in it for the money, had no real interest in the actual building blocks they were given -- and were predictably uninspired in the workplace.

The percentage of 'good' programmers was higher, but that was only because there was a 4-year barrier to entry vs ~16weeks-1yr for the tech schools in India.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#240

Post by erikpukinskis »

bluGill wrote: post #199
otakucode wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a smallish private university and in the first year, there were about 50 people who intended to go for a CS degree. By year 2, there were about a dozen left. Every single one that said 'I heard there were good jobs in it' was gone. CS and writing code is not like many different arenas in that if the homework takes you 8 hours to understand, then it takes you 8 hours to understand. If you don't understand it…

Math has the concept of non-compiling code: a proof that is wrong. You get partial credit if you get early steps right, and more if latter steps are right. The idea that code that doesn't compile is not worth partial credit is wrong in academics. In the real world the code needs to compile first, of course, then run. However if your professors cannot look at your code that doesn't compiler and decide how much partial…

> In the real world the code needs to compile first, of course, then run

This is not true in my experience as a professional. I write pseudocode all the time. Often the fastest way to evaluate architecture choices is to sketch out your architecture, sketch the consumers of your proposed API, and see what issues come up.

Making this kind of code compile is a waste of time. Reading code without the computer is a crucial skill.

Graders require compiling code because it's easier to grade.

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