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As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

nytimes.com

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Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#221

Post by tucif »

bluGill wrote: post #199
otakucode wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a smallish private university and in the first year, there were about 50 people who intended to go for a CS degree. By year 2, there were about a dozen left. Every single one that said 'I heard there were good jobs in it' was gone. CS and writing code is not like many different arenas in that if the homework takes you 8 hours to understand, then it takes you 8 hours to understand. If you don't understand it…

Math has the concept of non-compiling code: a proof that is wrong. You get partial credit if you get early steps right, and more if latter steps are right. The idea that code that doesn't compile is not worth partial credit is wrong in academics. In the real world the code needs to compile first, of course, then run. However if your professors cannot look at your code that doesn't compiler and decide how much partial…

How do you "decide how much partial it is worth" ?

Generally the task is not writing code, it is solving a specific problem and non-compiling code is a non-solution, not a partial one.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#222

Post by JBlue42 »

curun1r wrote: post #121
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

> The best developers I worked with are the self-taught guys/girls who learn on their own before they even hit the college I think this is the crux of the issues I had with bootcamp candidates. They were reasonably strong in the areas that they'd been taught, but there were gaping holes in their knowledge wherever they hadn't been taught. They could explain how to build a site with a Node backend and an Angular front…

I agree with this somewhat. The technology is the tool but the principles should be the first step.

This was said over on /r/sysadmin when people were discussing where to start with Powershell scripting and the top answer was to get a basic grasp of OOP first as a foundation.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#223

Post by bayonetz »

vonmoltke wrote: post #124
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

"Passion" the term definitely needs to be retired. It's pretty much a dog whistle as you say. However, whatever you want to call it, I do prefer to work with people who have both a high work ethic and an intrinsic interest and excitement about their work. It's absolutely more fun to have people to "geek out" with than not. In the grand scheme, I think we spend too much time at work to not try make it as enjoyable as possible while also still doing a good job. So I guess to your question of who gives a care if a coworker is boring: I (and I think lots of others) do...

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#224

Post by wallflower »

bichiliad wrote: post #174

Two things: Firstly, I work with a ton of people who came out of the Recurse Center (formerly Hacker School) and I've been consistently impressed by them. It seems to be a pretty self-paced thing, so maybe the people who do well there are the sorts of people who are excited about what they're learning, and I'm sure there's a layer of filtering at the hiring level. Just my personal experience. Secondly, I think that w…

I've met some alumni of the Recurse Center. They were all career programmers or hackers prior. It is not a boot camp like the ones mentioned in this article.

https://www.recurse.com/not-a-bootcamp

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#225

Post by victor___ »

otakucode wrote: post #176
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

I went to a smallish private university and in the first year, there were about 50 people who intended to go for a CS degree. By year 2, there were about a dozen left. Every single one that said 'I heard there were good jobs in it' was gone. CS and writing code is not like many different arenas in that if the homework takes you 8 hours to understand, then it takes you 8 hours to understand. If you don't understand it…

I think it depends on the individual and the class. With several philosophy classes I saw scores on weekly papers go from around 9/10 to around 5/10 if I tried to wing it and do it at the last minute.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#226

Post by victor___ »

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #197
otakucode wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a smallish private university and in the first year, there were about 50 people who intended to go for a CS degree. By year 2, there were about a dozen left. Every single one that said 'I heard there were good jobs in it' was gone. CS and writing code is not like many different arenas in that if the homework takes you 8 hours to understand, then it takes you 8 hours to understand. If you don't understand it…

Funny, I also studied CS and philosophy and always though it an execellent combination, most people I talk to find it odd.

I agree. Turns out being able to understand, evaluate and communicate about multiple perspectives on abstract concepts is a generally useful skill.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#227

Post by freshhawk »

tucif wrote: post #221
bluGill wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math has the concept of non-compiling code: a proof that is wrong. You get partial credit if you get early steps right, and more if latter steps are right. The idea that code that doesn't compile is not worth partial credit is wrong in academics. In the real world the code needs to compile first, of course, then run. However if your professors cannot look at your code that doesn't compiler and decide how much partial…

How do you "decide how much partial it is worth" ? Generally the task is not writing code, it is solving a specific problem and non-compiling code is a non-solution, not a partial one.

The same way as you would in every other type of education. If you know what you are doing, it is easy to see how close the student came to getting it right or if they were completely on the wrong track.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#228

Post by ghaff »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #196
jasode wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Perhaps uniquely among STEM subjects. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done anything Computer programming as a self-motivated hobby is not unique in this. Many electrical engineers started playing with electronics as kids (e.g. disassembling radios, wiring up homemade amps, etc). Many mathematicians "play" with math as kids before they go to college and get a teaching/research position. (E.g. Andrew Wiles…

That's not his point. No one expects a chemical engineering 1st year student to have mastered organic chemistry already. Just as no one expects a 1st year mechanical engineering student to thoroughly understand rigid body dynamics at age 10. Yea maybe they built an RC plane or did some home experiments, but if anyone is doing these things at a young age they are clearly far above their peers. > Andrew Wiles Example h…

Quite a few comments on this thread should be required reading for anyone seeking to understand some of the cultural "shortcomings" of the software industry generally and the software industry in Silicon Valley specifically. This idea that not having had an all-consuming for programming since childhood and not maintaining an active Github account for all your side projects means that we don't want your kind is toxic.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#229

Post by blub »

jasonlotito wrote: post #185
vonmoltke wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing as a professional requires some combination of drive, ambition, and work ethic. Interest in the job may make those things easier to find, but it is not a primary driver.

> Growing as a professional requires some combination of drive, ambition, and work ethic. People usually call those types of qualities "passion," "love of job," or "interest." You keep trying to work around definitions to suit your narrative when people are just trying to have an honest conversation. You are shoving intent into the OPs post that isn't there. Simply put, what they are saying is that those from bootcam…

Passion has become a synonym for being in love with a career. As you said: "love of job". Mixing a complex sentiment like love with coding is frankly ridiculous and I would argue undesirable.

Instead we should precise terms like drive, interest in technology, motivation to learn, etc. These make sense and don't bring any emotional baggage with them.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#230

Post by freshhawk »

arjie wrote: post #133
vonmoltke wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

Probably because you want to grow as a professional and it's much easier in an environment where our coworkers also want to grow. If they're content with where they are, there are numerous problems: • as the business case becomes more complex, they won't adapt • as you grow and progress, you'll be promoted and they won't. No one wants to work in an atmosphere of resentment. • you want to learn from your coworkers whi…

You're the only one so far who's mentioned the reason this is important to me.

I want to learn from my coworkers. Making decisions that require evaluating new software or new techniques is difficult and risky, having more than one damn person who can contribute to that process makes a huge difference. Plus, I just like learning things from people.

Sure, it's very good for the business if they keep up with new developments in a rapidly changing field, but personally it's most important to me that my coworkers and I are helping each other sharpen our skills and make tech decisions responsibly (being fad driven is worse than being out of touch, I don't mean just knowing about what's "hot right now").

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