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As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

nytimes.com

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Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#101

Post by speedplane »

allanbreyes wrote: post #42
Method-X wrote: post #23

Most coding bootcamps are a complete waste of money. Ever since I launched https://edabit.com , I've noticed a ton of traffic coming from these bootcamps and I'm not sure what to think of it. On the one hand, I like the free promotion but on the other, I can't help but feel as though these people are getting ripped off (considering they can access the site for free).

Bootcamp dropout, here. I 100% agree. I left The Starter League after the first semester when I realized the buyer's remorse of paying more per day than tuition at MIT. The prices for bootcamps simply aren't worth it, especially given the numerous online and self-paced options out there... many of which are free. How my story ended: I left the bootcamp and took a few Udacity Nanodegree programs for $200/month and (fu…

I definitely agree that there are less expensive options out there, but self-study isn't for everyone. Also, one of the main benefits of these boot-camps are their career counseling services.

At the end of the day, if you're able to increase your salary from $30k to $80k, the extra $15k on a course seems well worth it.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#102

Post by speedplane »

peter303 wrote: post #95

At the annual Denver Startup Week I notice about a third to half of the startup industry is incestuous, that provides facilities for developers to work better. These are mainly code academies and coworking spaces. I feel if the tech industry ever ever has one of its periodic down turns, then this it could rapidly implode with all these developer services. The reality is about half of the workers entered the tech indu…

Don't count on that. If an economic downturn happens, it's entirely possible that the less experienced, but less expensive developers will do well. It may be the experienced one will feel the hurt.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#103

Post by speedplane »

gfodor wrote: post #55
WhitneyLand wrote: post #41

Can someone remind me why boot camps were even a thing? What employer wouldn't be more impressed by a work sample? One possible plan: 1) Define success before doing anything. Pick specific companies or a specialty you want to end up with first. 2a) Take the three months (or however long you can afford to invest) and work backwards. Figure out the most impressive and relevant project that can be reasonably be accompli…

I agree this is probably a 1000x more effective way to get hired at engineering firms that are seeking out top talent. I think a big reason coding bootcamps exist is because the mental model is that "pay money -> software job" -- it's an appealing idea, and doesn't necessarily mean the person is not going to put in the effort, but it's broken. I think it makes logical sense to someone that if they are going to pay lo…

Of course applicants "who built something from scratch" will stand out above bootcampers, and some can get into big tech firms with just a "computer," "internet connection" and "focus[]", but that's also a really tall order.

There's nothing wrong with a "pay money -> software job" mentality, as long as the person is interested in the work, and puts in the effort. I know several people who came out of college with a humanities degrees only to become a poorly paid social media consultant or something similar. They didn't have the know-how to get started with software development on their own, but they enjoyed working with tech and were smart. They paid the $15k to the local bootcamp and within a few months got jobs increasing salaries from ~$30k to $80k (I know one who started well into six figures).

We shouldn't lock people out just because they didn't get into coding at ten years old. Bootcamps often lead to solidly paying entry level coding jobs, a great lifestyle, along with the gratification of actually building something. Bootcamps serve a real need between self-study and a heavy-handed multi-year BS or MS. The driven MS or self-study guy or gal may get the better job, but bootcamps will get the candidate in the door quickly, and they can prove themselves while on the job.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#104

Post by speedplane »

james1071 wrote: post #73

No surprises here - there is a conflict between making money and providing high quality education/training. Turning away customers is bad for business,but essential to keep up standards.

One of the biggest differences between bootcamps and traditional schools is that bootcamps often measure (and market) their success by job placements. Most large universities have entirely different incentives, often based on honors from research programs and large funding grants.

If your goal is to get a good job and you don't have a strong background, then these bootcamps are a fantastic resource.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#105

Post by k__ »

In Germany we have multiple alternatives.

You can study computer science and software engineering at universities. (Bachelor/Master of Science/Engineering)

You can study it at universities of applied science.

You can study it (without degree only state-certificate) at a school. (Staatlich geprüfter Informatiker)

And you can also do an apprenticeship in software development. (Fachinformatiker für Anwendungsentwicklung)

All are mostly free of charge OR you will even get paid doing them and you got an officially recognized paper that tells the world that you know stuff.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#106

Post by grogenaut »

romanovcode wrote: post #98
grogenaut wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities churn out teens of thousands of candidates every year as well. Actually there are at least a thousand universities in the us. Let's call it 30 cs students at each. That's 30k. Stanford has 574 last year in undergrad / 4

UNI takes around 3-4 years to complete. Bootcamps are like 12-36 weeks. People who graduate from UNI actually know some things.

His point was that thousands of people coming out of bootcamps were saturating the market. My point is I think the market is bigger than that or bootcamps wouldn't exist.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#107

Post by johan_larson »

The US Navy gets some IT work done by Information Systems Technicians. It's not clear from the job description, but they seem to be something between software developers and sysadmins. They have 24 weeks of training, which is comparable to a long civilian bootcamp. Anyone know if they're any good?

https://www.navy.com/careers/information-and-technology/info...

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#108

Post by mbrameld »

dwrench07 wrote: post #6

Current Data Science Student at Galvenize in Phoenix here. I came from a mix of technologies (approximate knowledge, but a master of none) before settling into the data sciences (Python ecosystem). Galvenize has been precisely the challenge I was looking for and so much more. I barely got by the interview process, but picked up a Veteran Scholarship worth half my $16,000 tuition along the way. Quit my job as a Salesf…

That sounds like it was written by Galvanize.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#109

Post by johan_larson »

ZGF4_ wrote: post #65

It's easy to bash these code camps saying they don't do a good job at teaching people the "real stuff" like traditional education does. People graduating with CS degrees are probably on average better than a boot camp grad but they likely spent 8x the time and money. And most of then still need a lot of investment from their first employer. Education is broken on both ends. Spending 4 years teaching yourself will get…

> Spending 4 years teaching yourself will get you way farther than a CS degree will.

For the extremely disciplined, maybe. For the rest, no.

Traditional schooling helps in two ways. First, they point the way to the important and useful stuff. If you're coming in knowing nothing, it's hard to figure out what to study. A good school will tell you. Second, they make demands. They set assignments and exams, grade what you did, and hold you accountable. They push you harder than you would push yourself, and that's really useful for anyone who is less than perfectly self-motivated, which is most of us.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#110

Post by veza »

If you go to a bootcamp you loose the struggle.

  The struggle to choose your domain: Web, Mobile, Embedded, Databases etc.
  The struggle to choose the programming language(s) / technologies to learn.
  The struggle to choose in which order and from where to learn them (for free).
  The struggle to choose your Code Editor / IDE.
That's a lot of time spent learning about technologies to make the right decision for you, and googling for answers.

But guess what you'll be doing as a Software Engineer :)

I didn't go to one but I imagine those decisions are being made for you. But I know about the struggle, and I remember it with pleasure and satisfaction.

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