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As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

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Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#61
Got to go to DevMtn for free in 2016. Got kicked out for smoking weed and they gave me a full refund out of pity. Learned enough to work 2 dev jobs in Utah, enough to realize what I really wanted out of life vs. what I thought I wanted.

Buying a Jeep soon and will be working remotely while roaming North America in 2018. Hobbies include: photography, writing, painting, hiking, design, animal rescue.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#62
post #47

Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process. Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get…

As one of those under-deluge hiring managers, I've found that candidates have already begun hiding their bootcamp / academy education during the application process. It is still pretty obvious, though: the resumes are all the same format, as are the application channels and techniques, and experience levels. I'd recommend these individuals look toward internships, as I haven't found one qualified for a full-time job…

The one I attended, Epicodus, did. It led to a great job at a tiny agency where I actually learned how to build production software.

Unfortunately, I do not believe they are able to line up internships for all students anymore.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#63
post #47

Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process. Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get…

Why would I believe, as a bootcamp grad, that you're going to be able to put aside your already-admitted bias when I make it to the table for the interview, or if I make it through the hiring process? Why would I want to work with a coworker who thinks "their resume looks great, but they're a bootcamp grad, so it must be a lie"? How can I be confident that you won't throw some bullshit about me being a bootcamp grad…

He's saying a person with a liberal arts degree and some amateur experience looks better than some one who graduated from a boot camp. The implication is that boot camps let people appear better than they are.

And you don't need to tell them you went to a boot camp. So if you get hired without mentioning it you won't deal with that bias.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#64
post #47

Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process. Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get…

As one of those under-deluge hiring managers, I've found that candidates have already begun hiding their bootcamp / academy education during the application process. It is still pretty obvious, though: the resumes are all the same format, as are the application channels and techniques, and experience levels. I'd recommend these individuals look toward internships, as I haven't found one qualified for a full-time job…

Some of them are - Ada's, for instance, and LaunchCode, both focus on internships as a big part of the program. But getting employers on board is a lot of work and I'd be surprised if it were possible to find enough places for all the boot camp students out there these days.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#65
It's easy to bash these code camps saying they don't do a good job at teaching people the "real stuff" like traditional education does. People graduating with CS degrees are probably on average better than a boot camp grad but they likely spent 8x the time and money. And most of then still need a lot of investment from their first employer.

Education is broken on both ends. Spending 4 years teaching yourself will get you way farther than a CS degree will. Code boot camps need to focus on teaching people how to self learn because that's really the only thing separates average engineers from great ones.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#66
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I believe, as a bootcamp grad, that you're going to be able to put aside your already-admitted bias when I make it to the table for the interview, or if I make it through the hiring process? Why would I want to work with a coworker who thinks "their resume looks great, but they're a bootcamp grad, so it must be a lie"? How can I be confident that you won't throw some bullshit about me being a bootcamp grad…

He's saying a person with a liberal arts degree and some amateur experience looks better than some one who graduated from a boot camp. The implication is that boot camps let people appear better than they are. And you don't need to tell them you went to a boot camp. So if you get hired without mentioning it you won't deal with that bias.

Depends on the boot camp, but a boot camper would probably write better code than someone that's self taught.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#67
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's saying a person with a liberal arts degree and some amateur experience looks better than some one who graduated from a boot camp. The implication is that boot camps let people appear better than they are. And you don't need to tell them you went to a boot camp. So if you get hired without mentioning it you won't deal with that bias.

Depends on the boot camp, but a boot camper would probably write better code than someone that's self taught.

Hack Reactor is touted as really exclusive, but it's a 12 week boot camp. Does anyone seriously think that 3 months or even 6 months is enough to become any sort of passable? A well paced, self taught programmer can surely strive to a higher standard.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#68
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's saying a person with a liberal arts degree and some amateur experience looks better than some one who graduated from a boot camp. The implication is that boot camps let people appear better than they are. And you don't need to tell them you went to a boot camp. So if you get hired without mentioning it you won't deal with that bias.

Depends on the boot camp, but a boot camper would probably write better code than someone that's self taught.

You're kidding right?

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#69

Can someone remind me why boot camps were even a thing? What employer wouldn't be more impressed by a work sample? One possible plan: 1) Define success before doing anything. Pick specific companies or a specialty you want to end up with first. 2a) Take the three months (or however long you can afford to invest) and work backwards. Figure out the most impressive and relevant project that can be reasonably be accompli…

"How does somebody new make a good project choice, when taking into account everything that would actually be impressive and help land a job would require years of experience to know? You can't without feedback or validation, so don't make the mistake of choosing solo. Just ask people who are in the target area to help you decide. Lots of people would be willing to give input and it's more chances for networking and…

Omg... with that kind of intense training and focus... it would make sense to call it something like "boot camp"! Let's do it! Shut up and take my VC money.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#70
post #47

Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process. Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get…

Why would I believe, as a bootcamp grad, that you're going to be able to put aside your already-admitted bias when I make it to the table for the interview, or if I make it through the hiring process? Why would I want to work with a coworker who thinks "their resume looks great, but they're a bootcamp grad, so it must be a lie"? How can I be confident that you won't throw some bullshit about me being a bootcamp grad…

The post above highlights the negative stereotype of bootcamp grads (being under-experienced and under-qualified for the jobs they apply for), and therefore recommends highlighting your experience and projects over your bootcamp certification.

If you have a "great resume" then a bootstrap certification is not what makes it great. Self taught developers prove that a degree is not essential, and being self taught shows motivation and interest.

If someone disagrees with you and they have more experience and/or education, then your level of knowledge is the first thing they would attack, so again keeping it on your resume is no advantage in that case.

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