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As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

nytimes.com

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Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#51

Post by gaius »

dmitri1981 wrote: post #48
gaius wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no STEM shortage and hasn't been for decades. Unemployment for CS grads in the UK is 14% according to the Graun (other sources have it at only 13%). And these people want to charge you a fortune claiming they can teach you better than a 3-year degree in a few weeks.

Is that for CS itself? The stats I've seen published in the past bundle lots of computer related subjects together, which massively distorts the picture.

I believe so yes.

Once you consider the consolidation of the web into a few companies, and the news every week of another company outsourcing jobs to low cost locations, it's clear we are near or passed "peak tech" in the West.

People paying for training should look into things that can't be outsourced.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#52

Post by timr »

enraged_camel wrote: post #32
latchkey wrote: post #21

Good riddance. Once recruiters figured out that placing these under qualified people into jobs was not a good thing, the bootcamps started to train people how to fake their resumes. Just like how people figured out that if they want a specific job, they only need to update their resume to include all the keywords in the job description. When I was hiring and screening hundreds of people, applications would show 'proj…

>>When I was hiring and screening hundreds of people, applications would show 'projects' completed on them as if they were real work. You have to start somewhere, right? Those projects may not be "real" work but they may be enough to have given the candidate exposure to various problem domains and experience in solving problems using code, which should really be sufficient if you are hiring entry-level devs. I mean w…

"Keep in mind that many computer science graduates can't even solve fizzbuzz."

I have encountered far more people who repeat this "fact" than I have encountered CS graduates who actually cannot solve fizzbuzz.

Closer to the truth is the statement that many computer science graduates can't solve a topcoder-elite problem, on a whiteboard, within 45 minutes, while talking out loud the entire time. Because that's closer to a real-world "fizzbuzz test" than anything I've seen on Joel Spolsky's blog. (sadly)

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#53

Post by fleshweasel »

latchkey wrote: post #33
dmitri1981 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Folks gotta start somewhere. If someone is sufficiently capable and motivated to put together a basic app why not count that experience? Surely if they built it then their work is exactly a demonstration of their skill.

It was a 'team' effort. So, when you go look at the git history of the 'project', you can see who in the team actually contributed. Usually, it wasn't the person looking for a job. Then you wonder, ok, maybe shared computer... which makes it even harder to figure out. How is that a win for people who are paying tons of money to get an 'education'? I believe strongly that software engineering is an art form that requi…

Idempotency is a good example of a trivia term that would be unreasonable to expect most recent CS graduates to know. Not to say that it's not a valuable property for a service or library or whatever to have under certain circumstances-- but it's not a reasonable way to decide whether a candidate for a junior position is a good fit.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#55

Post by gfodor »

WhitneyLand wrote: post #41

Can someone remind me why boot camps were even a thing? What employer wouldn't be more impressed by a work sample? One possible plan: 1) Define success before doing anything. Pick specific companies or a specialty you want to end up with first. 2a) Take the three months (or however long you can afford to invest) and work backwards. Figure out the most impressive and relevant project that can be reasonably be accompli…

I agree this is probably a 1000x more effective way to get hired at engineering firms that are seeking out top talent.

I think a big reason coding bootcamps exist is because the mental model is that "pay money -> software job" -- it's an appealing idea, and doesn't necessarily mean the person is not going to put in the effort, but it's broken.

I think it makes logical sense to someone that if they are going to pay lots of money for something, they think they are going to ultimately have an advantage over someone who took the path you mentioned, which is basically "free" other than opportunity cost. Surely, they must be getting something valuable for their money. Think of similar things like SAT test prep or other forms of job training that actually do legitimately teach trade skills that result in job placement that are hard to learn without experienced mentors, in person training, or expensive equipment.

Unfortunately, the reality is the opposite in software engineering due to the nature of what we do and what makes people really good. You don't need much other than a computer, an internet connection, and focused time to build something noteworthy enough to cause potential employers to notice.

The person above who built something from scratch on their own stands out head and shoulders above the sea of applicants from coding boot camps who have only done coursework.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#56

Post by trowawee »

WhitneyLand wrote: post #41

Can someone remind me why boot camps were even a thing? What employer wouldn't be more impressed by a work sample? One possible plan: 1) Define success before doing anything. Pick specific companies or a specialty you want to end up with first. 2a) Take the three months (or however long you can afford to invest) and work backwards. Figure out the most impressive and relevant project that can be reasonably be accompli…

"How does somebody new make a good project choice, when taking into account everything that would actually be impressive and help land a job would require years of experience to know? You can't without feedback or validation, so don't make the mistake of choosing solo. Just ask people who are in the target area to help you decide. Lots of people would be willing to give input and it's more chances for networking and follow up conversations."

If only there were some sort of...educational institution...that could put you into contact with people in the target area and get you that kind of input, even if your personal network doesn't already include people in that profession. And that could help you figure out the most impressive and relevant project that could be reasonably accomplished in a short time. And that could provide instructors from the industry who could provide immediate, rapid feedback on your projects. And then, maybe that institution could connect you to a network of quality contacts composed of previous graduates and contacts from the instructors' time in the industry.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#57

Post by samcheng »

gfodor wrote: post #47

Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process. Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get…

As one of those under-deluge hiring managers, I've found that candidates have already begun hiding their bootcamp / academy education during the application process.

It is still pretty obvious, though: the resumes are all the same format, as are the application channels and techniques, and experience levels.

I'd recommend these individuals look toward internships, as I haven't found one qualified for a full-time job yet. Why aren't bootcamps lining up internship programs?

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#58

Post by Method-X »

mingp wrote: post #31
Method-X wrote: post #23

Most coding bootcamps are a complete waste of money. Ever since I launched https://edabit.com , I've noticed a ton of traffic coming from these bootcamps and I'm not sure what to think of it. On the one hand, I like the free promotion but on the other, I can't help but feel as though these people are getting ripped off (considering they can access the site for free).

Out of curiosity, how do you know that your visitors come from bootcamps?

Google Analytics; most of them seem to have some sort of internal members only area set up where they link to course material.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#59

Post by NoCoastCoder »

samcheng wrote: post #57
gfodor wrote: post #47

Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process. Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get…

As one of those under-deluge hiring managers, I've found that candidates have already begun hiding their bootcamp / academy education during the application process. It is still pretty obvious, though: the resumes are all the same format, as are the application channels and techniques, and experience levels. I'd recommend these individuals look toward internships, as I haven't found one qualified for a full-time job…

Because the reason people pay for them is the promise of a quick high paying job.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#60

Post by gfodor »

trowawee wrote: post #50
gfodor wrote: post #47

Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process. Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get…

Why would I believe, as a bootcamp grad, that you're going to be able to put aside your already-admitted bias when I make it to the table for the interview, or if I make it through the hiring process? Why would I want to work with a coworker who thinks "their resume looks great, but they're a bootcamp grad, so it must be a lie"? How can I be confident that you won't throw some bullshit about me being a bootcamp grad…

The issue isn't with the candidate it's with the application of the candidate. You've presented two different things as the same. The initial screening process at many companies is pretty deterministic, based on fixed inputs in the person's application, and so can somewhat be easily gamed unless it is continually refined by engineering leadership to counteract some of the dynamics I mentioned by those who basically make a living trying to get all of their students through these screens.

If there is a sufficient correlation between radically underqualified candidates passing the initial screens due to their applications being (retrospectively) designed by the coding boot camp to do so, then it's reasonable to assume applications from those boot camps contain basically no real signal, and so really don't say much one way or another about the candidate's technical skills. In general, interviewing people is costly, and so with minimal signal you'll just say "no."

On the other hand, if there is no coding boot camp on the resume, there's no reason to believe the person's resume, github profile, etc, has been hand crafted by domain experts around passing technical job screens. You can much more likely take it at face value. So, that is why my honest advice at this time is to leave it off, because you are probably doing more harm than good. (This doesn't mean remove the work from your github or wipe the knowledge you had from your brain, just don't put it there because it may be sending a negative signal, regardless of your own merit.)

Once the person is in the door for an interview or the job their application is, generally speaking, not very relevant at that point vs their actual abilities to get the job done and work well on the team.

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