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Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

nytimes.com

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Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#51

Post by rayiner »

briholt wrote: post #29
rayiner wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're going to play poker. Everyone will start with a randomly determined number of chips. But people whose HN handles start with A-H will get, on average, 40% less to start with. Aside from that tiny nit, it'll be a totally fair game.

Every individual black/Hispanic person is born with exactly 40% less wealth than every white/Asian person? It's time to re-evaluate your life choices when you think it's a good thing to promote blanket race-baiting stereotypes.

> people whose HN handles start with A-H will get, on average, 40% less to start with

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#52

Post by Danihan »

evanlivingston wrote: post #33
Danihan wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can't fight bias with more bias, it's hypocritical.

You understand the problem with color-blindness, yes?

Blind-hiring worked to remove the gender gap in orchestras. Why wouldn't it be good to use in college admissions?

http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact....

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#53

Post by adjkant »

aianus wrote: post #26
jacalata wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now translate "chips" into "systemic and generational advantages" and include detail on how to give everyone the same number.

Childcare, subsidized/free tutoring, mentoring, etc. I'm on board with practically anything other than lowering the admission bar. Edit: admission to good public schools based on standardized tests instead of family real estate would be a good start

And what of studies that give evidence for racial biases in standardized testing?

Your suggestions are all well and good, but do you see any of those happening soon? It's not like anyone is even remotely discussing this anywhere and with the current administration, it sure isn't happening soon at a federal level.

The question becomes if affirmative action is better than nothing at all.

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#54

Post by rayiner »

yequalsx wrote: post #27

To fix inequality of opportunities one would be well advised to start with the way k-12 schools are funded. It's too late for most disadvantaged students by the time they are old enough to go to college.

Some of the best-funded and worst-performing school systems are ones in inner cities with high minority populations. Baltimore, MD public schools spends more per student than the wealthy D.C. suburb of Montgomery County, MD, despite having a lower cost of living.

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#55

Post by adjkant »

evanlivingston wrote: post #40
fiter wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grant you that this example is contrived, but I'd play poker very differently if that was the case!

Word, but I think it underlines a real problem. For some people with low chances of losing in the game (trust fund, property, stable family, no prior convictions, etc) life can be a game about maximizing gains. For others it's toothe and nail. When the rules of the game are historically set by people who are already too stable to really lose, it's the "weaker" players who get exploited.

I would add to this that making the system fairer will inherently decrease the chances for the higher starting players. That is because they had a higher chance to start with. The lowering of their chances is not a bad thing, it is perfectly just. But it's hard to get those players to accept that when they are starting from that position of power.

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#56

Post by fiter »

evanlivingston wrote: post #40
fiter wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grant you that this example is contrived, but I'd play poker very differently if that was the case!

Word, but I think it underlines a real problem. For some people with low chances of losing in the game (trust fund, property, stable family, no prior convictions, etc) life can be a game about maximizing gains. For others it's toothe and nail. When the rules of the game are historically set by people who are already too stable to really lose, it's the "weaker" players who get exploited.

When you phrase it that way, it sounds like you think it's hopeless to have a system with objectively fair rules.

Notwithstanding the probably uninspired resulting college environment, I think it would be hypothetically fair to admit people solely based on their standardized test scores without any other consideration. The admission standard while somewhat arbitrary would be clear, such that anyone who wants to get admitted could work towards it.

If someone is provided with a substandard K-12 education, it would make it harder to work towards admission. In that case, maybe we should look into the K-12 environment. Maybe it turns out that it's not as much the K-12 environment, and it's actually home life. Maybe home life issues are related to incarceration or maybe they're hereditary. I think this is what an effort to root-cause the problem would look like. When you find the root causes, then you could provide help for anyone with that root cause problem.

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#57

Post by jacalata »

Danihan wrote: post #21
jacalata wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What other way? The one where some people have enormous structural disadvantages due to decades or more of discrimination? We agree it doesn't work, but many people get angry and defensive when we try and create systems that are fair enough to take this into account, like affirmative action policies.

Because you can't fight bias with more bias, it's hypocritical.

No, it isn't. It would be hypocritical to say "slavery is bad and it was done to black people so we should make white people slaves now". It is not hypocritical to say "black people were mistreated because of their race and this has disadvantaged them as a group, here are some ways to make up for that previous treatment". If one kid gets singled out at school to be beaten up, it is not hypocritical to single him out for medical treatment afterwards. You are not giving him medical treatment because he is a nerd/funny looking/unlucky,you are reacting to the situation he is in now because of past unfairness.

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#58

Post by jacalata »

ManlyBread wrote: post #30
sanjeetsuhag wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Again, all you can do is treat people as fairly as possible by basing admissions policies on merit and standardization, rather than sloppily basing them on perceived group identity. Another ground breaking discovery! Everyone has equal opportunity in this world. Poverty, discrimination and access to quality education are completely fictional. Keep these thoughts coming man, I'm writing you up for the Noble Prize.

There is a lot of angst in your reply, but no alternatives to what the OP is proposing.

the alternative is what OP is attacking - affirmative action.

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#59

Post by adjkant »

Danihan wrote: post #52
evanlivingston wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You understand the problem with color-blindness, yes?

Blind-hiring worked to remove the gender gap in orchestras. Why wouldn't it be good to use in college admissions? http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact... .

Because the input of applicants is the original problem. Affirmative action is intended to select more from the limited applicants, which in the end is a small effect in comparison to getting more black/hispanic students who are able to go college at all. Solving that takes a lot more, and affirmative action is attempting to stopgap for that.

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#60

Post by briholt »

rayiner wrote: post #51
briholt wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every individual black/Hispanic person is born with exactly 40% less wealth than every white/Asian person? It's time to re-evaluate your life choices when you think it's a good thing to promote blanket race-baiting stereotypes.

> people whose HN handles start with A-H will get, on average , 40% less to start with

So you're saying individuals' wealth may differ from the average of other people sharing their skin color? Too bad we can't measure a person's wealth directly and have to rely on racist hysteria as a proxy.
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