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Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

nytimes.com

11–20 of 94 posts

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#11
post #3

More like "because of Affirmative Action". Just treat people as fairly as possible. The other way doesn't work.

What other way? The one where some people have enormous structural disadvantages due to decades or more of discrimination? We agree it doesn't work, but many people get angry and defensive when we try and create systems that are fair enough to take this into account, like affirmative action policies.

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#12
post #4
post #3

More like "because of Affirmative Action". Just treat people as fairly as possible. The other way doesn't work.

We're going to play poker. Everyone will start with a randomly determined number of chips. But people whose HN handles start with A-H will get, on average, 40% less to start with. Aside from that tiny nit, it'll be a totally fair game.

Is the alternative that we play poker and after every N rounds the chips are redistributed so that everyone has the same amount?

At what point(s) should redistribution happen? At what point(s) should it stop to allow better decision making?

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#13
post #10
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're going to play poker. Everyone will start with a randomly determined number of chips. But people whose HN handles start with A-H will get, on average, 40% less to start with. Aside from that tiny nit, it'll be a totally fair game.

So give everyone the same number of chips; don't compensate by changing the rules so that a black straight beats a white flush.

Now translate "chips" into "systemic and generational advantages" and include detail on how to give everyone the same number.

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#14
post #7
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're going to play poker. Everyone will start with a randomly determined number of chips. But people whose HN handles start with A-H will get, on average, 40% less to start with. Aside from that tiny nit, it'll be a totally fair game.

The "fair" solution is to make sure that A-H folks start with the same amount as the rest. The "reverse discrimination" solution is to take, after half of the game, the winnings of P-W folks and give them to C-J folks.

But when in reality does that actually happen? I'm not trying to incite you, I just really don't see evidence of "reverse discrimination"

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#15
post #7
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're going to play poker. Everyone will start with a randomly determined number of chips. But people whose HN handles start with A-H will get, on average, 40% less to start with. Aside from that tiny nit, it'll be a totally fair game.

The "fair" solution is to make sure that A-H folks start with the same amount as the rest. The "reverse discrimination" solution is to take, after half of the game, the winnings of P-W folks and give them to C-J folks.

Please, college acceptance here is more like giving the C-J folks a pass on their first 2 blinds. College acceptance isn't like we're taxing people based on race.

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#16
post #12
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're going to play poker. Everyone will start with a randomly determined number of chips. But people whose HN handles start with A-H will get, on average, 40% less to start with. Aside from that tiny nit, it'll be a totally fair game.

Is the alternative that we play poker and after every N rounds the chips are redistributed so that everyone has the same amount? At what point(s) should redistribution happen? At what point(s) should it stop to allow better decision making?

There's your problem: you assume that redistributing every n rounds means that decision making suffers.

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#17
post #4
post #3

More like "because of Affirmative Action". Just treat people as fairly as possible. The other way doesn't work.

We're going to play poker. Everyone will start with a randomly determined number of chips. But people whose HN handles start with A-H will get, on average, 40% less to start with. Aside from that tiny nit, it'll be a totally fair game.

If only it was so easy in real life to cleanly figure out who "starts out with less". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#18
post #6

I bet it's all those pesky good for nothing lazy asians that spend their entire time doing useless things like studying and trying to make it in life. They're the reason smart and honest blacks and hispanics are being pushed out of top universities. We really need to do something about this.

I wondered how long it would take to see trollish comments on this thread. Not long!

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#19
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just treat people as fairly as possible. Wow, man, you just like, solved racism and discrimination.

Discrimination can't be "solved" because 1. People are genetically different and 2. Anyone can have biases about anything. I could shut down every interviewee with big ears, or beady eyes, if I wanted to. Again, all you can do is treat people as fairly as possible by basing admissions policies on merit and standardization, rather than sloppily basing them on perceived group identity.

+1; and, even if poster above had a proposed methodology for proving discrimination, he couldn't show how such discrimination, over a population of hundreds of millions over decades and over trillions of minute decisions, nets out, since discrimination runs in all directions at all times.

Re: Blacks and Hispanics Are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago

#20
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just treat people as fairly as possible. Wow, man, you just like, solved racism and discrimination.

Discrimination can't be "solved" because 1. People are genetically different and 2. Anyone can have biases about anything. I could shut down every interviewee with big ears, or beady eyes, if I wanted to. Again, all you can do is treat people as fairly as possible by basing admissions policies on merit and standardization, rather than sloppily basing them on perceived group identity.

I encourage you to teach a science course for non-majors at a local university that serves minorities. Unless you are intentionally blind the experience will be enlightening. The variation in quality of high schools in the US is astounding and needs to be experienced first-hand.

Where does the talk about genetic variation and unconscious bias even come from? It's not relevant in this context.

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