World War II was totally unrealistic • Hacker News Board

Re: World War II was totally unrealistic

#81

Post by btilly » Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 3:54 PM UTC

dimitar wrote: post #66

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because we believe, because of the movies, that largescale event SHOULD behave as if orchestrated by a logical, sane author. History is just, all of us, doing things selfishly.

That is actually why Hitler had an incursion in the USSR while waging war in North Africa and the Atlantic, creating an anti-Hitler coalition and thus having no chance of an outcome that isn't a catastrophe for Germany. Surely an unwise decision. The Soviets knew in advance of the invasion of the USSR but Stalin could not believe that the Germany could do such thing. Not because he trusted Hitler, but because such a…

I disbelieve. When Hitler invaded, he immediately put his plan from Mein Kampf into action, and tried to consolidate control and create Lebensraum (aka "living space") for the German people. He had made his desire for that invasion clear many years earlier.

If Hitler hadn't been a deranged fool he would have not sent the SS into Czechoslovakia (which turned the initially rejoicing population hostile), and would have immediately drove right for Moscow. Had he done that the Russians would have had no communication lines, which would have made it massively harder for them to organize a resistance.

Hitler in some sense was the best friend the Allied forces had. Every time he made a major military decision (eg "let the English rescue all of their troops at Dunkirk") it turned out to be really stupid. And the conduct of the Russian war shows lots of examples of that.

Re: World War II was totally unrealistic

#82

Post by btilly » Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 4:00 PM UTC

cturner wrote: post #50

brazzy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And to lots of people in Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq, the Israeli and American leaderships are as close to pure evil as has ever existed. "Evil" is a concept useful for propaganda and little else.

"Evil" is a concept useful for propaganda and little else. Really? Can you read _Lord of the Flies_ and conclude that what the boys are doing isn't evil, because all ethics are relative?

News Flash. The Lord of the Flies is fiction.

Evil is a very useful way to understand fiction because the "reality" it exists in is made-up and fits the description. In the real world evil is much more ambiguous, and is mostly a tool for helping convince people that one side is awful and the other must therefore be right. The fact that people are wired to react that way makes it very useful for propaganda.

Re: World War II was totally unrealistic

#83

Post by viggity » Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 4:00 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #17

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #12

At first I thought the author might be poking fun at the war -- then I realized that he was actually poking fun at himself. People have high standards for fiction, yet some of the strangest things are real-life stories from history. A couple of my favorites from the Pacific Theater: 1) Radar detected the Japanese strike force approaching Pearl Harbor, but the guy in charge said it was a glitch. 2) The Japanese planne…

Not to mention the aircraft carriers made out of ice, the campaign to firebomb Japanese cities using bats with incendiaries tied to them, or the brilliant idea to starve out Japanese island garrisons by airdropping pigs onto them in the hope that the pigs would eat the grains before the Japanese ate the pigs (failed).

If anyone is interested in the "aircraft carrier made out of ice", you can find out more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete

Re: World War II was totally unrealistic

#84

Post by hughw » Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 4:00 PM UTC

zokier wrote: post #71

c1sc0 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upvoted for daring to raise the issue of history-rewriting.

History is written by the victors.

I recommend reading David Irving's Hitler's War and Churchill's War as an antidote to the Churchill hagiography. You'll be able to filter out Irving's opinions and still see another perspective on the war. One in which Chamberlain and Halifax are statesmen who might have been successful in avoiding armed conflict, but for the determined war party of Churchill. I'm not here to make that case -- just saying, there are mighty few revisionist histories you can pick up at Borders, and you should read them.

Re: World War II was totally unrealistic

#85

Post by chloraphil » Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 4:04 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #21

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #12

At first I thought the author might be poking fun at the war -- then I realized that he was actually poking fun at himself. People have high standards for fiction, yet some of the strangest things are real-life stories from history. A couple of my favorites from the Pacific Theater: 1) Radar detected the Japanese strike force approaching Pearl Harbor, but the guy in charge said it was a glitch. 2) The Japanese planne…

As I mentioned before, not only do the Nazis have an urgent plan to conquer the world ASAP, but they also have super science weapons research. Stealth bombers, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, and jet planes. Yet, at the beginning of the war, they faced cavalry charges ! There are real life super-scientists engaged in real-life super-science intrigue to keep nuclear secrets out of Nazi hands. And on top of that,…

By "cavalry charges" I assume you are referring to the Polish cavalry who did not, in fact, charge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry#World_War_II

Re: World War II was totally unrealistic

#86

Post by sedachv » Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 4:13 PM UTC

MarkPNeyer wrote: post #38

stcredzero wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I mentioned before, not only do the Nazis have an urgent plan to conquer the world ASAP, but they also have super science weapons research. Stealth bombers, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, and jet planes. Yet, at the beginning of the war, they faced cavalry charges ! There are real life super-scientists engaged in real-life super-science intrigue to keep nuclear secrets out of Nazi hands. And on top of that,…

"these guys are worse or on a par for atrocities with anyone ever, real or imagined" If you look at the total number of people killed, hitler's atrocities pale in comparison with those of Stalin and Mao.

The total numbers pulled from Reagan's imagination?

edit: I'll post some sources when I get home

Re: World War II was totally unrealistic

#87

Post by Qz » Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 4:16 PM UTC

shadowsun7 wrote: post #11

"An intelligent observation of the facts of human existence will reveal to shallow-minded folk who sneer at the use of coincidence in the arts of fiction and drama that life itself is little more than a series of coincidences." -- Rafael Sabatini This article was probably meant as humour, but I can't help but notice that fiction and life are two very different things. Fiction makes sense; life very often does not.

You need to read more fiction :).

Re: World War II was totally unrealistic

#88

Post by cema » Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 4:23 PM UTC

chloraphil wrote: post #85

stcredzero wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I mentioned before, not only do the Nazis have an urgent plan to conquer the world ASAP, but they also have super science weapons research. Stealth bombers, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, and jet planes. Yet, at the beginning of the war, they faced cavalry charges ! There are real life super-scientists engaged in real-life super-science intrigue to keep nuclear secrets out of Nazi hands. And on top of that,…

By "cavalry charges" I assume you are referring to the Polish cavalry who did not, in fact, charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry#World_War_II

I have read about Soviet cavalry charges as late as 1942, but in memoirs, not history books.

Re: World War II was totally unrealistic

#89

Post by AndrewO » Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 4:23 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #77

patio11 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the aircraft carriers made out of ice, the campaign to firebomb Japanese cities using bats with incendiaries tied to them, or the brilliant idea to starve out Japanese island garrisons by airdropping pigs onto them in the hope that the pigs would eat the grains before the Japanese ate the pigs (failed).

My favorite messed up weapons from WW II. The Americans came up with an anti-tank grenade that was really sticky so that it would stay to the tank it was thrown at. Discontinued due to an unfortunate tendency to remain in the thrower's hand. The Russians (land of Pavlov and all that) came up with the idea of dogs with bombs strapped to their backs that had learned to associate the under side of tanks with food. Great…

(You meant "The Russians (land of Pavlov...", right?)

Re: World War II was totally unrealistic

#90

Post by dasil003 » Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 4:26 PM UTC

shadowsun7 wrote: post #11

"An intelligent observation of the facts of human existence will reveal to shallow-minded folk who sneer at the use of coincidence in the arts of fiction and drama that life itself is little more than a series of coincidences." -- Rafael Sabatini This article was probably meant as humour, but I can't help but notice that fiction and life are two very different things. Fiction makes sense; life very often does not.

And what of Stephenson's Cryptonomicon?