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Startups should not use React

medium.com

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Re: Startups should not use React

#171

Post by pluma »

abhineet97 wrote: post #169
pluma wrote: post #87

Nerds shouldn't write opinion pieces about subject domains they don't understand. Seriously, stop this. Sometimes you just need to admit you have no idea what you're talking about and shut up. The author honestly thinks using Preact or Inferno could protect them from patent lawsuits. Oh, wait, maybe "Facebook holds any software patents on the Virtual DOM or the React APIs" so better use Vue and Cycle. Unless you actu…

pluma has contributed 2 commits to react: https://github.com/facebook/react/commits?author=pluma This isn't highly relevant but it can be a probable cause for bias.

I've also visited a number of React conferences.

I've also been writing code since 1995 and participated in web standards discussions during the XForms days landing me in the HTML Acknowledgements: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/acknowledgements.html

I'm also a contributor to a number of Apache 2 licensed projects.

I don't have financial ties to Facebook. In fact I'm opposed to the idea of working at Facebook.

I'm not sure what conclusions you want to draw from any of this, but feel free to do so.

I'm just annoyed to see this clickbait article on the frontpage of HN after far more knowledgeable people have had far more insightful things to say on the issue.

Yes, I want to see React succeed because I think it's honestly a good tool and the maintainers are doing a great job. But the reason I'm so obviously angry about this particular discussion is that it's spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt over what is a total non-issue for any project that doesn't have to adhere as religiously to a single open source license as the Apache Software Foundation does.

This discussion lends itself to people who don't even grasp the difference between a patent grant and a copyright license patting each other on the back for agreeing on how horrible Facebook is. I don't like Facebook either, but the only people who should tell you whether you should be using Facebook open source software are your legal department or your lawyer.

Deciding against React because you might at some point in the future have a patent you want to use to actively sue Facebook is like deciding against buying a pack of tissues because you might at some point in the future decide to set your house on fire. It's mostly irrelevant and at the point at which it becomes relevant your house is on fire.

Re: Startups should not use React

#172

Post by donkeyd »

Confiks wrote: post #89
donkeyd wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The "they didn't force me to comply" defence hardly ever holds. In the Netherlands, somebody was recently fined for using an image she got from a "free photo's" website. It was a picture that was illegally published on that website, and the judge said she should've checked whether it was actually royalty free. The fine was even higher than expected because she also cropped the picture, which was another brea…

If you refer to the case in De rijdende rechter ("The traveling judge"): she didn't have to pay a fine, but pay damages to the opposing party (which applies to civil rather than criminal law). In addition to that, both parties have agreed to submit to a binding arbitration decision, with the 'judge' actually being the arbitrator, despite what the program's name would suggest. That means that the decision doesn't actu…

You are correct, damages, not a fine, I used the wrong word.

Also, while I agree that they don't have to follow the law, they usually do. In the end, the 'judgement' is still based on the law and legal precedent, like in an actual court case.

Re: Startups should not use React

#173

Post by ktta »

nojvek wrote: post #162
ktta wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article again, you will notice the point about how large communities don't form with these licenses. Open source software shouldn't have any restrictions on who can use them and who can't. While this license don't specifically exclude a class of people explicitly, even you agree that big companies can't use these projects. So these projects effectively exclude hundreds of thousands of software develop…

Your bigger VC competitors probably used Preact, inferno or other vdom libraries so it's really not a great competitive edge. Except it says that you're not serious about your startup's long term future.

I'm arguing that there will be no competitive edge. React got where it is today with the help of lots of developers.

If the current license problems came to light before, React would be an inferior project compared to others because the others will have more development. So the ecosystem around other popular project (VueJS?) would be bigger and more robust (because of the number of people providing feedback and filing bugs)

Re: Startups should not use React

#174

Post by pluma »

nojvek wrote: post #160
JoshMnem wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't read the whole article, so my comment is about the PATENTS file and not the article. The situation isn't just about React. The PATENTS file is found in many repos, and it's leaking into the entire open source ecosystem due to dependencies. Those kinds of conditions should not be added to Free software licenses.

React licence introduces unwanted licence complexity. If I make an OS project that uses React what is my licence?

Your license is still whatever your license is.

The PATENTS file is an additional patent grant. The BSD license contains no patent grant, it's just a copyright license.

You can even distribute React as part of an Apache2 project. The Apache2 patent grant explicitly only covers relevant patents the contributors hold.

Re: Startups should not use React

#175

Post by alifa »

pluma wrote: post #87

Nerds shouldn't write opinion pieces about subject domains they don't understand. Seriously, stop this. Sometimes you just need to admit you have no idea what you're talking about and shut up. The author honestly thinks using Preact or Inferno could protect them from patent lawsuits. Oh, wait, maybe "Facebook holds any software patents on the Virtual DOM or the React APIs" so better use Vue and Cycle. Unless you actu…

Totally agree with `Oh, wait, maybe "Facebook holds any software patents on the Virtual DOM or the React APIs" ` Writing articles is a mean to become famous!

Re: Startups should not use React

#176

Post by JoshMnem »

pluma wrote: post #174
nojvek wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

React licence introduces unwanted licence complexity. If I make an OS project that uses React what is my licence?

Your license is still whatever your license is. The PATENTS file is an additional patent grant. The BSD license contains no patent grant, it's just a copyright license. You can even distribute React as part of an Apache2 project. The Apache2 patent grant explicitly only covers relevant patents the contributors hold.

And possibly also a restriction. It appears to say that if Facebook infringes your patents, you can't defend your patents.
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