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Startups should not use React

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Re: Startups should not use React

#81
What makes the PATENTS file legally binding? If I install React via NPM/Yarn, or even as a dependency of another project, I will not see this file.

LICENSE is a pretty common convention and you could argue I should seek out this file in every one of my dependencies' dependencies - but how would I know to look for PATENTS?

Are all statements in the code base legally binding? Could they be hidden in a source file somewhere?

Re: Startups should not use React

#82
post #9

It's worth noting this "you can't sue us for violating your patents if you use our non-free open source software" is working as designed. Facebook claims that if every company adopted a React-like license, that software patents as we know it would basically die. It's worth noting that both Google and Facebook's patent lawyers are generally of the opinion that software patents are net bad, but differ in their opinions…

As a small startup, I absolutely love Facebook's React patent licensing. It gives me the advantage to use React (Native) while my bigger VC-funded competitors can't. It is like the opposite of economy of scale, haha.

(PS: i have no plan to be acquired or raise a VC round or file any patent)

Re: Startups should not use React

#83

What makes the PATENTS file legally binding? If I install React via NPM/Yarn, or even as a dependency of another project, I will not see this file. LICENSE is a pretty common convention and you could argue I should seek out this file in every one of my dependencies' dependencies - but how would I know to look for PATENTS? Are all statements in the code base legally binding? Could they be hidden in a source file somew…

Not a lawyer, but I can imagine it can be expected that you do some due diligence before installing it through npm - like checking the website whether their license allows you to use it, and on what terms.

Re: Startups should not use React

#84
post #83

What makes the PATENTS file legally binding? If I install React via NPM/Yarn, or even as a dependency of another project, I will not see this file. LICENSE is a pretty common convention and you could argue I should seek out this file in every one of my dependencies' dependencies - but how would I know to look for PATENTS? Are all statements in the code base legally binding? Could they be hidden in a source file somew…

Not a lawyer, but I can imagine it can be expected that you do some due diligence before installing it through npm - like checking the website whether their license allows you to use it, and on what terms.

Exactly. The "they didn't force me to comply" defence hardly ever holds.

In the Netherlands, somebody was recently fined for using an image she got from a "free photo's" website. It was a picture that was illegally published on that website, and the judge said she should've checked whether it was actually royalty free. The fine was even higher than expected because she also cropped the picture, which was another breach of copyright, apparently.

Re: Startups should not use React

#85
post #9

It's worth noting this "you can't sue us for violating your patents if you use our non-free open source software" is working as designed. Facebook claims that if every company adopted a React-like license, that software patents as we know it would basically die. It's worth noting that both Google and Facebook's patent lawyers are generally of the opinion that software patents are net bad, but differ in their opinions…

[deleted]

Re: Startups should not use React

#86
Trust. Trust. Trust and Trust again. My brain becomes exhausted within seconds of reading a licence. Not just because I'm lazy, but because I know that however closely I think I'm reading it, I probably won't be reading it closely enough to be 100% sure of my conclusions (viz. the differences of opinion here from people that actually have read this thing).

So what do I do? I trust certain organisations and I don't trust others.

No-one in their right mind can trust Facebook. You might as well trust the Ocean.

Re: Startups should not use React

#87
Nerds shouldn't write opinion pieces about subject domains they don't understand.

Seriously, stop this. Sometimes you just need to admit you have no idea what you're talking about and shut up.

The author honestly thinks using Preact or Inferno could protect them from patent lawsuits. Oh, wait, maybe "Facebook holds any software patents on the Virtual DOM or the React APIs" so better use Vue and Cycle.

Unless you actually know

1) which patents Facebook holds and

2) which patents are relevant to each framework/library (i.e. React and various its alternatives)

stop giving people legal advice about which library they should be using.

The cosmic irony would be if Facebook didn't hold any patents covering React to begin with but DID hold patents covering parts of Angular, Ember, Vue and Preact, over which they can sue who they like because Facebook never gave them a patent grant for those. Sounds far-fetched? It isn't because we don't know which actual patents these could be and who holds them.

Or for all you know Google might sue you. Or Apple.

This isn't a discussion, this is literally just a bunch of nerds ranting on the Internet about problems they don't sufficiently understand, playing Three Blind Men with the elephant that is Software Patents.

Re: Startups should not use React

#88

Do most software startups even have patentable technology? I'm rather curious about this. Most consumer and SaaS apps I know of are built on non-patented software so I generally question this advice. The fridge example was a case in point of how ridiculously low the odds of any company getting into patent litigation with Facebook are. To go to battle with FB you're gonna need millions and it's going to take years. Th…

It's purely anecdata but I've worked for a dozen different companies in my career. The only companies that are still around today are the companies that had patents.

Re: Startups should not use React

#89
post #84
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a lawyer, but I can imagine it can be expected that you do some due diligence before installing it through npm - like checking the website whether their license allows you to use it, and on what terms.

Exactly. The "they didn't force me to comply" defence hardly ever holds. In the Netherlands, somebody was recently fined for using an image she got from a "free photo's" website. It was a picture that was illegally published on that website, and the judge said she should've checked whether it was actually royalty free. The fine was even higher than expected because she also cropped the picture, which was another brea…

If you refer to the case in De rijdende rechter ("The traveling judge"): she didn't have to pay a fine, but pay damages to the opposing party (which applies to civil rather than criminal law). In addition to that, both parties have agreed to submit to a binding arbitration decision, with the 'judge' actually being the arbitrator, despite what the program's name would suggest. That means that the decision doesn't actually have to follow the law.

I personally find it unhelpful that the program never clarifies that it is a display of binding arbitration instead of a decision by a judge. I've seen the layman confuse the two quite a few times.

Re: Startups should not use React

#90
post #87

Nerds shouldn't write opinion pieces about subject domains they don't understand. Seriously, stop this. Sometimes you just need to admit you have no idea what you're talking about and shut up. The author honestly thinks using Preact or Inferno could protect them from patent lawsuits. Oh, wait, maybe "Facebook holds any software patents on the Virtual DOM or the React APIs" so better use Vue and Cycle. Unless you actu…

Nerds will stop talking about things they don't know the day where:

- other people will stop saying bullshits about computing;

- nerds will stop learning new things by trials and error.

None of those will ever happen, so make peace with the fact it will happen more and more.

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