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People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

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Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#61

Post by nasalgoat »

_ncxu wrote: post #9
karllager wrote: post #6

I believe the tech sector is extremely prone to this: If you cannot climb out of a technical role, over time, you realize just how clueless most people are, especially those who imagine themselves of being "in control". Not just a bit uninformed, no: absolutely positively clueless[1]. If you go the management route, you often give up, what got you started with all this is the first place: curiosity and exploration, c…

I'm only 31 and found out the hard way that 90% of the way successful people got to where they are is through charisma, lying, and cheating others.

I was recently tapped for a VP position at a bank and out of curiosity I checked it out. An initial meeting later I could see I wasn't a good fit.

I think there is a fundamental difference between myself and the people who are successful in such environments and I've been trying to figure it out. They all seem very confident, polished, with expensive clothes, but is there something deeper there involving people handling and politics that I just seem incapable of understanding or emulating?

20 years on, working mostly for startups and basically avoiding politics for the most part, I wonder if I've actually neglected a key component of my on the job learning by not exercising the soft skills more.

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#62

Post by KGIII »

bigmanwalter wrote: post #57
KGIII wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we call those people "psychopaths." I suppose they may enjoy it. Duly noted. Sort of related: Way back when, I did manual labor. Later, I'd get my doctorate and start my own business. I was more exhausted from the mental labor than I was from the manual labor.

I completely agree, I used to paint in the summers. As soon as work was done, I was having fun and full of energy. Now, as a developer, I can barely hold a conversation with my girlfriend I have so little energy left after a day of work.

I'm a mathematician, and haven't any idea why it is this way. I suppose there's a name for it, a reason for it, and a bunch of people with varied opinions on it.

But, it does seem true. It does seem that I'm much more exhausted after mental labor (for wont of a better term). I'm retired, today. I do all sorts of manual labor, even though I don't really need to. It doesn't really tire me out that much. Yet, the mental work is still relatively exhausting.

I have no idea why.

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#63

Post by bigmanwalter »

KGIII wrote: post #62
bigmanwalter wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree, I used to paint in the summers. As soon as work was done, I was having fun and full of energy. Now, as a developer, I can barely hold a conversation with my girlfriend I have so little energy left after a day of work.

I'm a mathematician, and haven't any idea why it is this way. I suppose there's a name for it, a reason for it, and a bunch of people with varied opinions on it. But, it does seem true. It does seem that I'm much more exhausted after mental labor (for wont of a better term). I'm retired, today. I do all sorts of manual labor, even though I don't really need to. It doesn't really tire me out that much. Yet, the mental…

I believe that our bodies weren't designed to handle intense mental processing for such long bouts. It's no wonder mathematicians, developers and other knowledge workers require immense volumes of caffeine to get anything done.

The use of caffeine results in a light activation of the fight or flight response. I'm sure it plays a role in the exhaustion. Especially when the "threats" are ever present unrealistic deadlines.

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#64

Post by KGIII »

bigmanwalter wrote: post #63
KGIII wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a mathematician, and haven't any idea why it is this way. I suppose there's a name for it, a reason for it, and a bunch of people with varied opinions on it. But, it does seem true. It does seem that I'm much more exhausted after mental labor (for wont of a better term). I'm retired, today. I do all sorts of manual labor, even though I don't really need to. It doesn't really tire me out that much. Yet, the mental…

I believe that our bodies weren't designed to handle intense mental processing for such long bouts. It's no wonder mathematicians, developers and other knowledge workers require immense volumes of caffeine to get anything done. The use of caffeine results in a light activation of the fight or flight response. I'm sure it plays a role in the exhaustion. Especially when the "threats" are ever present unrealistic deadli…

This is, distinctly, not my domain. But, curiosity struck and so I went to the almighty Google and found this:

https://www.livescience.com/5325-mental-fatigue-perceived-ph...

You may find it interesting, so I figured I'd share it. I offer no opinions, other than to say it is interesting and that the study was done with a very small sample size. (I'm unqualified to opine beyond that.)

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#65

Post by Twirrim »

sjg007 wrote: post #31
sharkweek wrote: post #10

I started to notice this in my late 20s. It felt kind of like a "the emperor has no clothes" moment when I was working at a tech startup that pushed long hours/weekend work in order to fulfill some "mission" and "greater purpose" and that I should feel a part of this for the greater good. It kind of hit me that this was mostly just a fantastic way to extract more work out of young, impressionable 20somethings who did…

The only payoff is the IPO. Sad but true. You can work in a world changing place but you also want it to change your world.

Given how few startups actually make it to IPO, and with the way equity for the workers gets watered down heavily, it's naive at best to mistake that equity as anything meaningful.

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#66

Post by vkuruthers »

ditonal wrote: post #48
gagege wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently sat through one of those company/product mission presentations at work. It was one of those "am I the only sane person working here?" moments. I like our product, I want to see it succeed, but I really can't stand the religious fervor marketing departments and managers give off. And the amazing part is that my co-workers seem to completely buy into it. Everyone talks like what we're doing is going to chang…

Went through this exactly. My guess is because founders select for overconfidence (necessary for pitching investors maybe?) It also ties into founder worship which seems really common (people always dropping reasons founder is some uberhuman). I just felt like my intelligence was insulted. I also found out a lot of the other people who "bought into" the "mission" were really just playing along. We also did a lot of "…

Sounds like your agile process was actually "flacid agile", this is very common. Suffering this at my current workplace too.

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#67

Post by vkuruthers »

Twirrim wrote: post #65
sjg007 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only payoff is the IPO. Sad but true. You can work in a world changing place but you also want it to change your world.

Given how few startups actually make it to IPO, and with the way equity for the workers gets watered down heavily, it's naive at best to mistake that equity as anything meaningful.

Need to view that equity as icing on the cake, that's all. Highly likely to lead to a meaningful cashout, unless you were a founder.

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#68

Post by bigmanwalter »

KGIII wrote: post #64
bigmanwalter wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that our bodies weren't designed to handle intense mental processing for such long bouts. It's no wonder mathematicians, developers and other knowledge workers require immense volumes of caffeine to get anything done. The use of caffeine results in a light activation of the fight or flight response. I'm sure it plays a role in the exhaustion. Especially when the "threats" are ever present unrealistic deadli…

This is, distinctly, not my domain. But, curiosity struck and so I went to the almighty Google and found this: https://www.livescience.com/5325-mental-fatigue-perceived-ph... You may find it interesting, so I figured I'd share it. I offer no opinions, other than to say it is interesting and that the study was done with a very small sample size. (I'm unqualified to opine beyond that.)

A lot of research around Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is pointing toward mitochondria as being a prime culprit. As the most energy consuming organ in our body, I would expect the brain to quickly use up our easy-to-access / quick release energy so it's really not so surprising to me.

I have no biology degree, but I find it interesting and have no problems opining about :p

I've often found a smoothie made with fresh fruit to work well against mental fatigue. Often it's as or more effective than a cup of coffee.

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#69

Post by zzalpha »

AstralStorm wrote: post #29
zzalpha wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only bad managers forego creativity and progress. Don't blame the role for the mediocrity of some people who play it. Strangely, people don't hold the same view of conductors, even if they don't play the instruments. Or directors, even though they don't do the acting. Or football coaches, even if they aren't the playing game. Hell, there's management simulator games out there that people love. But software management…

Nice no true Scotsman here. Now define a good manager from a shareholder view.

I don't think you know what that fallacy is, or alternatively didn't actually read my comment.

That fallacy would apply if I was claiming bad managers aren't managers.

I'm not claiming that.

I'm saying not all managers are bad and the job does not inherently mean a lack of creativity or skill.

As for you cynical follow up question: Shareholders benefit from low turnover and high productivity in an environment that rewards creativity and risk taking. Building that kind of environment requires substantial management talent. Again, the coach metaphor is very apt, here.

As an aside: cynicism and nihilism might be fashionable but it's shallow and lazy.

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#70

Post by tonyarkles »

leoc wrote: post #39
sharkweek wrote: post #10

I started to notice this in my late 20s. It felt kind of like a "the emperor has no clothes" moment when I was working at a tech startup that pushed long hours/weekend work in order to fulfill some "mission" and "greater purpose" and that I should feel a part of this for the greater good. It kind of hit me that this was mostly just a fantastic way to extract more work out of young, impressionable 20somethings who did…

The Soul of a New Machine gives a very good depiction of the moral ambiguities of that crusading spirit in the context of (most) computer-industry work.

> The mushroom philosophy of management: keep 'em in the dark, feed 'em shit, and watch things grow.
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