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People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

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Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#41

Post by gagege »

sharkweek wrote: post #10

I started to notice this in my late 20s. It felt kind of like a "the emperor has no clothes" moment when I was working at a tech startup that pushed long hours/weekend work in order to fulfill some "mission" and "greater purpose" and that I should feel a part of this for the greater good. It kind of hit me that this was mostly just a fantastic way to extract more work out of young, impressionable 20somethings who did…

I recently sat through one of those company/product mission presentations at work. It was one of those "am I the only sane person working here?" moments. I like our product, I want to see it succeed, but I really can't stand the religious fervor marketing departments and managers give off. And the amazing part is that my co-workers seem to completely buy into it. Everyone talks like what we're doing is going to change the world and yadda yadda yadda, like there's some kind of prophesy about our social media app.

How about lets make the thing and see if it's successful before we start singing its praises, okay?

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#42

Post by zingar »

karllager wrote: post #6

I believe the tech sector is extremely prone to this: If you cannot climb out of a technical role, over time, you realize just how clueless most people are, especially those who imagine themselves of being "in control". Not just a bit uninformed, no: absolutely positively clueless[1]. If you go the management route, you often give up, what got you started with all this is the first place: curiosity and exploration, c…

Your comment made me think of a book that I read recently, Developer Hegemony[1]. It explores how the modern corporate forces us into three roles: pragmatists who opt out of the game and find their identity elsewhere ("I'd rather be fishing"), idealist middle management who sacrifice perspective and work twice as long for 10% more plus the illusion that one day they'll be recognised for their hard work (they won't), and opportunists who realise that the game is about perception management and are willing to sacrifice ethics for their place in the upper echelons.

I found myself pretty depressed after the first few chapters. The author even takes shots at the software development as a craft narrative, which is fascinating because my bubble is filled with people who devote their lives to this idea. Ultimately he outlines a vision where software people take advantage of the huge gains that a business can make through automation to carve out a comfortable niche outside of the corporate rat race. But it requires understanding business and marketing and not "being paid to practice your hobby" (which he reckons is the reality of most software jobs).

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Developer-Hegemony-Erik-Dietrich/dp/0...

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#43

Post by FLUX-YOU »

RobertoG wrote: post #30
gakz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have hope that some companies are starting to understand this and we'll have –hopefully– a course correction. What has become common is unsustainable. A few companies are starting to understand this, I think what DHH and Basecamp are doing is more the future. Giving people's lives outside of work as seemingly a first class priority, which sounds weird to say as a new notion, but yet here we are - https://basecamp.c…

That's only possible if your business model doesn't depend on extracting "more work out of young, impressionable 20somethings who didn't know any better without paying them for this extra effort".

I doubt very few of them depend on it, but that was just a way to get a higher profit margin. It's the reverse when developers try to negotiate higher salaries for themselves. Some portion of the population is not going to be good at negotiating and so will be underpaid.

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#44

Post by sharkweek »

gagege wrote: post #41
sharkweek wrote: post #10

I started to notice this in my late 20s. It felt kind of like a "the emperor has no clothes" moment when I was working at a tech startup that pushed long hours/weekend work in order to fulfill some "mission" and "greater purpose" and that I should feel a part of this for the greater good. It kind of hit me that this was mostly just a fantastic way to extract more work out of young, impressionable 20somethings who did…

I recently sat through one of those company/product mission presentations at work. It was one of those "am I the only sane person working here?" moments. I like our product, I want to see it succeed, but I really can't stand the religious fervor marketing departments and managers give off. And the amazing part is that my co-workers seem to completely buy into it. Everyone talks like what we're doing is going to chang…

I think deep down, a lot of people have a low hum of awareness that they don't believe what is being said, but it's a survival mechanism to repress this in order to maintain a sense of worth in the work being done/not get fired for not being a team player.

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#45

Post by scrumper »

sharkweek wrote: post #10

I started to notice this in my late 20s. It felt kind of like a "the emperor has no clothes" moment when I was working at a tech startup that pushed long hours/weekend work in order to fulfill some "mission" and "greater purpose" and that I should feel a part of this for the greater good. It kind of hit me that this was mostly just a fantastic way to extract more work out of young, impressionable 20somethings who did…

I'm quite interested in fully worker-owned cooperatives, with necessary management hired in by and accountable to the collective (think: CFOs). I'm thinking of the kind of structure of the Martian cooperatives that Kim Stanley Robinson writes about.

These organizations are likely extremely hard to get off the ground and certainly would be virtually impossible to grow beyond a certain small size, but the software industry has unique aspects allowing it to deliver enormous returns on the efforts of a handful of specialists.

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#46

Post by scrumper »

zingar wrote: post #42
karllager wrote: post #6

I believe the tech sector is extremely prone to this: If you cannot climb out of a technical role, over time, you realize just how clueless most people are, especially those who imagine themselves of being "in control". Not just a bit uninformed, no: absolutely positively clueless[1]. If you go the management route, you often give up, what got you started with all this is the first place: curiosity and exploration, c…

Your comment made me think of a book that I read recently, Developer Hegemony[1]. It explores how the modern corporate forces us into three roles: pragmatists who opt out of the game and find their identity elsewhere ("I'd rather be fishing"), idealist middle management who sacrifice perspective and work twice as long for 10% more plus the illusion that one day they'll be recognised for their hard work (they won't),…

Losers, Clueless, and Sociopaths: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#47

Post by SubuSS »

_ncxu wrote: post #9
karllager wrote: post #6

I believe the tech sector is extremely prone to this: If you cannot climb out of a technical role, over time, you realize just how clueless most people are, especially those who imagine themselves of being "in control". Not just a bit uninformed, no: absolutely positively clueless[1]. If you go the management route, you often give up, what got you started with all this is the first place: curiosity and exploration, c…

I'm only 31 and found out the hard way that 90% of the way successful people got to where they are is through charisma, lying, and cheating others.

If you meant 90% of successful people's way is paved by those things, I don't agree: It is very easy to discount hard work and forgive our own laziness by zeroing in on 'bad' stuff.

If you meant 90% of the successful people got there by those things - then I would want to understand your definition of success. The folks I consider successful have always used their opportunities well, not just rode out the luck.

We all have low points in life where everything feels unfair. I am not going to tell you to shake it off because you have to find your way out yourself. I can indeed tell you that doesn't last long - It's a cycle. If you find a way to cherish the happier moments and remind yourself of them often enough, the bad ones don't feel long either. Keep that chin up!

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#48

Post by ditonal »

gagege wrote: post #41
sharkweek wrote: post #10

I started to notice this in my late 20s. It felt kind of like a "the emperor has no clothes" moment when I was working at a tech startup that pushed long hours/weekend work in order to fulfill some "mission" and "greater purpose" and that I should feel a part of this for the greater good. It kind of hit me that this was mostly just a fantastic way to extract more work out of young, impressionable 20somethings who did…

I recently sat through one of those company/product mission presentations at work. It was one of those "am I the only sane person working here?" moments. I like our product, I want to see it succeed, but I really can't stand the religious fervor marketing departments and managers give off. And the amazing part is that my co-workers seem to completely buy into it. Everyone talks like what we're doing is going to chang…

Went through this exactly. My guess is because founders select for overconfidence (necessary for pitching investors maybe?) It also ties into founder worship which seems really common (people always dropping reasons founder is some uberhuman).

I just felt like my intelligence was insulted. I also found out a lot of the other people who "bought into" the "mission" were really just playing along.

We also did a lot of "agile" that wasn't agile at all. Make "MVPs" that weren't shippable, do work in 2 week "sprints" but never talk to customers for months etc

Like you said, I'm much happier at a place that takes a critical eye at its own projects, is actually willing to change the plan according to feedback rather than assume we're building the founder's "vision", actually dont' take ourselves too seriously, etc

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#49

Post by zingar »

scrumper wrote: post #46
zingar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment made me think of a book that I read recently, Developer Hegemony[1]. It explores how the modern corporate forces us into three roles: pragmatists who opt out of the game and find their identity elsewhere ("I'd rather be fishing"), idealist middle management who sacrifice perspective and work twice as long for 10% more plus the illusion that one day they'll be recognised for their hard work (they won't),…

Losers, Clueless, and Sociopaths: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

He cites the Gervais principle a lot :)

Re: People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35

#50

Post by scrumper »

zingar wrote: post #49
scrumper wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Losers, Clueless, and Sociopaths: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

He cites the Gervais principle a lot :)

Ah! Yes the description seemed to match it very well. Maybe in the winter when I am particularly miserable on my 6am train I will read the book :)
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