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Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

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Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me stretch your analogy to make the opposite point: I am employed as an embedded developer. The position I was hired for has a heavy focus on C programming. I would never write the "C is stupid and nobody should use it anymore" articles, but I do still think they have merit and will share them around the company. As someone who knows how to read an argument and separate wheat from the chaff, I have been experimen…

Really, the language- or framework-based examples don't apply well because people aren't tools. CoCs generally protect people from bad behavior by other people, under the assumption that debating the merits of people the way you'd debate the merits of tools is, well, a dick move.

I agree, people are not tools. But codes of conduct are tools. They are used by people, to achieve goals.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#112
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I go to an interview for a Python developer position, and I say "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," and I don't get the job, it would be ridiculous for anyone to say that I got punished for not using the correct words. This is the same thing. The Node.js TSC is the body that maintains and enforces the Code of Conduct. Maybe Node should have a CoC, maybe not, but so long as it has one, t…

Let me stretch your analogy to make the opposite point: I am employed as an embedded developer. The position I was hired for has a heavy focus on C programming. I would never write the "C is stupid and nobody should use it anymore" articles, but I do still think they have merit and will share them around the company. As someone who knows how to read an argument and separate wheat from the chaff, I have been experimen…

Yes, and I think that's fine. (I'm in a largely similar position in my own job as it happens, and my management agrees: we probably want out of the technology I'm working on, but we want it well-maintained until we figure out what our better option is.)

My sense, and again I am an outsider and might be wrong, is that Rod wasn't of the opinion that he'll enforce the CoC as long as the TSC (other smart people) and the Node community see it as the right current plan, but he'll advocate for long-term change. He was of the opinion that, right now, not only was the CoC without merit, but it's reasonable for him to actively apologize for moderation actions that the rest of the TSC took.

That is I think not directly analogous to what you are doing. It is much more analogous to you replying to your coworkers code reviews with "-1, it's 2017, you shouldn't write in C," or replying to your customers' bug reports with "Yeah, well, we're writing in C so of course our code is broken." Your coworkers are willing to work with you because they believe, regardless of what articles you're sharing, that for the foreseeable future you will write the best C you can and help them write the best C they can. If that trust is there, advocating for change is totally reasonable. If it's not, and either you believe that your coworkers are hopelessly misguided or they believe that you're hopelessly misguided, one of the two factions needs to leave for the team to be productive again.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#113
post #109
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I go to an interview for a Python developer position, and I say "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," and I don't get the job, it would be ridiculous for anyone to say that I got punished for not using the correct words. This is the same thing. The Node.js TSC is the body that maintains and enforces the Code of Conduct. Maybe Node should have a CoC, maybe not, but so long as it has one, t…

> "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," And if you say "there can be downsides to using Python, here's an article describing them" and the response is "you're fired, you infidel, how dare you to question The Sacredness!" then I probably don't want to work in that company.

I agree, but I'm not sure how that's relevant.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a CoC to deal with 'poisonous people' as the old talk by the Subversion guys named them. You just need a maintainer with common sense who treats list bans as a last resort, but is willing to use them if things get out of hand. If the maintainer can't be trusted to do such things properly, they probably can't be trusted to exercise common sense in other areas too, but in practice I've not seen that be a…

Again, you're arguing in favor of trusting mods (or just one sole maintainer). I'm arguing that mods will abuse power unless their power is restricted, which is why I think CoCs are good. One could argue that all you need is a single maintainer, like North Korea has, and I get it, that does sound simpler. But I prefer it when there are more rules to prevent dictators - I think those rules can limit the powers of the…

Well yes, lots of projects do run on the so-called "benign dictator" model. As do nearly all companies.

Moderators abusing their power is absolutely possible. However it seems to me, anecdotally, that putting in place a CoC is a good sign that such abuse is about to get far more common.

The problem is that a CoC cannot really be any more precise than my vague 'use common sense' strategy is. A CoC will basically say "be nice to people, don't be a dick" in more flowery language, but ultimately - as incidents like this one show - there will still be moderators who decide whether any given incident is in violation. So a CoC doesn't really help with moderator abuse: if they want to be abusive, they're going to do it.

Of course, you can get really in depth and create judgement panels, voting mechanisms, appeals processes etc for a CoC violation. But we already have that, it's law.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#115
post #113
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," And if you say "there can be downsides to using Python, here's an article describing them" and the response is "you're fired, you infidel, how dare you to question The Sacredness!" then I probably don't want to work in that company.

I agree, but I'm not sure how that's relevant.

That's pretty much what happened to nodejs, as far as I can see - somebody said that CoC and speech codes may have downsides, people freaked out and demanded that either he's booted out or they leave.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#116
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can one be a "Free Speech Extremist" You either support Free Speech or you do not. If you ever say something like "I support free speech but not hate speech" or "I support free speech but..." then you are not a supporter of free speech.

As with most things in life, there are nuances. The free speech right guarded by the First Amendment in the US is not absolute; there are categories that don't meet the criteria (such as the "falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater" example, Schenck v. United States, 1919). There's room for difference of opinion on whether an individual circumstance crosses into the "Creating a clear and present danger" category,…

>>>The free speech right guarded by the First Amendment in the US is not absolute; there are categories that don't meet the criteria (such as the "falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater" example, Schenck v. United States, 1919).

Except for the fact that I am not talking about, nor ever used a reference to the 1st amendment to the US Constitution

I am talking about Free Speech, not Constitutional law. Those are different issues

Further, I am extremely tired of people using "Yell Fire" as a excuse for censorship

Schenck was a TERRIBLE precedent and has been largely over turned by other rulings

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-tim...

https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-ha...

"Bear all of that in mind the next time someone name-drops Holmes and cites Schenck as part of a broad endorsement of censorship. The problem isn't that they're incorrectly citing Holmes. The problem is that they are citing him exactly right, for the vague, censorious, and fortunately long-departed "standard" he articulated. Justice Holmes, three generations of hearing your sound-bite are enough." -- Ken White

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#117
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As with most things in life, there are nuances. The free speech right guarded by the First Amendment in the US is not absolute; there are categories that don't meet the criteria (such as the "falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater" example, Schenck v. United States, 1919). There's room for difference of opinion on whether an individual circumstance crosses into the "Creating a clear and present danger" category,…

>>>The free speech right guarded by the First Amendment in the US is not absolute; there are categories that don't meet the criteria (such as the "falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater" example, Schenck v. United States, 1919). Except for the fact that I am not talking about, nor ever used a reference to the 1st amendment to the US Constitution I am talking about Free Speech, not Constitutional law. Those are di…

Outside of a specific legal, moral, or philosophical framework, the meaning of "Free Speech" likely varies too much from observer to observer to have much value in discussion.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not judge merit directly, yourself? As far as I can tell there is no merit to the complaints. If 4 members stepped down, that suggests Node TSC has a serious problem with people who are wildly extreme. Here's what appears to have happened based on the original complaint: 1. This guy tweets an article that discusses campus speech codes, university politics and so on. It doesn't attack anyone and is a fairly long-w…

First, tweeting the anti-CoC article was only one of the issues listed, but some of them were on the private issue tracker so I can't speak to those. The article was definitely what brought it to a head because it prompted some people to say publicly they had bad interactions with Rod Vagg. There were also a number of thoughtful responses to Rod's tweet where people spelled out why they thought his attitude towards C…

Why would an article on missing generics in Go be inflammatory? Repetitive, wrong, tiresome, whatever, sure - in your view. But inflammatory? Please. This is symptomatic of the general abuse of language that I have come to associate with social justice related conflicts. Absurd over the top language and imagery is used to try and justify absurd and over the top responses.

The tweets by ag_dubs seem like a good example. She starts by saying up front her problem with Rod is that he "criticises social policies in node" and she can't handle that so she lessened her participation. Presumably she means policies like the CoC.

Then she goes on to assert that he "engaged in targeted harassment against me personally". Because of his "unrestrained antagonism", she often has to have "other people speak on my behalf to sidestep his derailing responses".

Having read that set of tweets, put simply, I don't believe her. I do not believe she has been harassed. I think she can't separate someone disagreeing with her on social policy issues with "harassment". The logic leap from "he harassed me" to, "that's why I ... avoid his derailing responses" clearly isn't rooted in any conventional definition of harassment. And what does it even mean, getting others to speak for her?

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#119

So he dared to be in favour of anti-CoC article in one of his Twitter posts and thus unleashed the SJW brigade? What an heinous crime.

Would you please not post unsubstantive inflammatory comments, especially on divisive topics, to HN? That's flamebait and we ban accounts that do it repeatedly, regardless of the views they favor/disfavor.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, tweeting the anti-CoC article was only one of the issues listed, but some of them were on the private issue tracker so I can't speak to those. The article was definitely what brought it to a head because it prompted some people to say publicly they had bad interactions with Rod Vagg. There were also a number of thoughtful responses to Rod's tweet where people spelled out why they thought his attitude towards C…

Why would an article on missing generics in Go be inflammatory? Repetitive, wrong, tiresome, whatever, sure - in your view. But inflammatory? Please. This is symptomatic of the general abuse of language that I have come to associate with social justice related conflicts. Absurd over the top language and imagery is used to try and justify absurd and over the top responses. The tweets by ag_dubs seem like a good exampl…

> The logic leap from "he harassed me" to, "that's why I ... avoid his derailing responses" clearly isn't rooted in any conventional definition of harassment.

Um, yes it is. A harassing response which does not address the substance of your points is clearly a derailing response. That you can't "clearly" see this says more about you than it does about her.

> And what does it even mean, getting others to speak for her?

Literally, it means asking a colleague to say the exact thing that she wishes to say, because she knows that if she says it he will try to ad hominem it. This is standard English.

I would also point out that some of her vocabulary, "Beyond ____, also ____", is also standard English and it forbids your egregiously malformed interpretation of her comments. That is, you seem to think that the "targeted harassment" is "his constant, unproductive criticism" when in fact the criticism is clearly, in context, the "what he has done to the health of the project" which she has just been talking about -- and she has saying that "beyond" that, he "also" has targeted her with harassing statements. That construction explicitly forbids your sophomoric armchair psychoanalysis which can't separate someone who happens to disagree with you on social policy issues as "she can't separate someone disagreeing with her on social policy issues with harassment." (I don't actually believe that you are this way -- I don't know you -- I just think that your comment reeks of it and I would observe in passing that paradoxically we all accuse ourselves of our own sins. I mean, I'm terribly guilty of the latter, at least.)

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