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Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

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Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#101

Post by syshum »

cjslep wrote: post #43
syshum wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>responding with snark and condescension Tell me it is not soo... Not snark and condescension.... Why that is the most terribleist thing ever.... it makes me sad that we has a society seem to be reject the concept of Free Speech in favor of speech codes and acceptable Speech with punishment for anyone that does not use the "correct words"

Isn't the entire point of a Code of Conduct to restrict speech and behavior? Those who are Free-Speech extremists should be staying away from CoCs anyway.

How can one be a "Free Speech Extremist"

You either support Free Speech or you do not.

If you ever say something like "I support free speech but not hate speech" or "I support free speech but..." then you are not a supporter of free speech.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#102

Post by scubapilot »

geofft wrote: post #35
syshum wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>responding with snark and condescension Tell me it is not soo... Not snark and condescension.... Why that is the most terribleist thing ever.... it makes me sad that we has a society seem to be reject the concept of Free Speech in favor of speech codes and acceptable Speech with punishment for anyone that does not use the "correct words"

If I go to an interview for a Python developer position, and I say "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," and I don't get the job, it would be ridiculous for anyone to say that I got punished for not using the correct words. This is the same thing. The Node.js TSC is the body that maintains and enforces the Code of Conduct. Maybe Node should have a CoC, maybe not, but so long as it has one, t…

Let me stretch your analogy to make the opposite point:

I am employed as an embedded developer. The position I was hired for has a heavy focus on C programming. I would never write the "C is stupid and nobody should use it anymore" articles, but I do still think they have merit and will share them around the company. As someone who knows how to read an argument and separate wheat from the chaff, I have been experimenting with Rust and raising the possibility of adoption in certain areas of new development.

I do not intend to write C at this job. I intend to leverage the right tools to achieve our embedded goals. For as long as that means C, it'll be C, but C might not be the most appropriate tool and I am open to changing our tools.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#103

Post by rhapsodic »

mcphage wrote: post #77
strken wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit worrying that the steering committee for such a widely used technology, one which billion-dollar companies have built stacks around, could fracture because of a twitter fight. Without knowing the facts, the fact that we even know this happened and that it briefly ended up on the front page of HN is concerning.

> It's a bit worrying that the steering committee for such a widely used technology, one which billion-dollar companies have built stacks around, could fracture because of a twitter fight. Any group of people leading an organization can fracture because of a fight; it's nothing new, and the fact that it happened on twitter is immaterial. > Without knowing the facts, the fact that we even know this happened and that i…

> Agreed. Given the list of problems was removed from the GH issue, I have no idea what this is about, and no way of forming an opinion on any of it. I at least will flag it.

There is plenty of information in the comments to this post to get an idea of what it is about. I respectfully suggest that you get some insight before suppressing the post through flagging.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#104

Post by smsm42 »

ebola1717 wrote: post #57
strictnein wrote: post #34

The unredacted details still feel like they're missing something: https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.co... "...Rod’s first action was to apologize to a contributor who had been repeatedly moderated. Rod did not discuss the issue with other members of the CTC/TSC first. The result undermined the moderation process as it was occurring" "Rod did not moderate himself when asked by another foundatio…

What do you think you're missing? He undermined the processes he's meant to support, which sends a mixed message about the org's commitment to its Code of Conduct, and in fact his behavior undermined its authority. In addition, he explicitly violated some policies. Out of his 13 peers (other Node TSC members), 4 felt strongly enough about this that they have resigned.

An idea that if an organization has a CoC all the members should be unquestioning fanatical supporters of it and can never even consider discussing the costs vs benefits of it or reevaluating the premises sounds weird and rather harmful for a healthy atmosphere. Since when the doubt is a thoughtcrime in tech community, that must result in immediate expulsion? Since when have we become so stuffy and drunk on "authority" that the mere thought of dissent is intolerable?

> 4 felt strongly enough about this that they have resigned.

Those people felt so strongly about somebody mulling the downsides of CoCs that they preferred to leave the project they worked on than to try and cooperate with the person that may have slightly different opinion. Unless CoC is pretty much the only thing in the universe that can never have downsides or unintended consequences, this is pretty depressing.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#105

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #100
fixermark wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of everything in there, this one is probably the most problematic. """ His tweeting of screen captures of immature responses suggests pleasure at having upset members of the JavaScript community and others. As a perceived leader, such behavior reflects poorly on the project. https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887790865766268928 """

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#106

Post by smsm42 »

fixermark wrote: post #13
syshum wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems he committed the cardinal sin of expressing support for Free Speech and questioning some aspects of Codes of Conduct. One can not even question the codes of conduct, they are written on stone and are beyond criticism and questioning...

... or he committed the cardinal sin of questioning the Code of Conduct, and when challenged on it, responding with snark and condescension, demonstrating the need in the community for a Code of Conduct.

"challenged on it" is rather charitable description of a tweet consisting of a threat to take dump on somebody's laptop.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#107

Post by swampangel »

peoplewindow wrote: post #85
ebola1717 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, this article comes from another TSC member, meaning one of his peers. If 4 of your 12 peers resign because you weren't removed, there is almost certainly some merit to these complaints.

Why not judge merit directly, yourself? As far as I can tell there is no merit to the complaints. If 4 members stepped down, that suggests Node TSC has a serious problem with people who are wildly extreme. Here's what appears to have happened based on the original complaint: 1. This guy tweets an article that discusses campus speech codes, university politics and so on. It doesn't attack anyone and is a fairly long-w…

First, tweeting the anti-CoC article was only one of the issues listed, but some of them were on the private issue tracker so I can't speak to those.

The article was definitely what brought it to a head because it prompted some people to say publicly they had bad interactions with Rod Vagg.

There were also a number of thoughtful responses to Rod's tweet where people spelled out why they thought his attitude towards CoCs was unhelpful. As far as I know he didn't engage any of these authors, which makes me suspect he was not actually looking for "interesting discussion".

Overall it was inflammatory in the same way another article complaining about missing generics in golang would be inflammatory here. The article doesn't seem to respect existing work and doesn't bring a new or evidence based perspective.

I agree it would be nice if all the complaints, responses, etc were laid out plainly. But I can also understand why this is not the case, given tweets like https://twitter.com/ag_dubs/status/887785046320480256 and the understanding that there's little benefit for the women involved to gain by re-litigate these interactions in public.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#108

Post by fixermark »

syshum wrote: post #101
cjslep wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the entire point of a Code of Conduct to restrict speech and behavior? Those who are Free-Speech extremists should be staying away from CoCs anyway.

How can one be a "Free Speech Extremist" You either support Free Speech or you do not. If you ever say something like "I support free speech but not hate speech" or "I support free speech but..." then you are not a supporter of free speech.

As with most things in life, there are nuances. The free speech right guarded by the First Amendment in the US is not absolute; there are categories that don't meet the criteria (such as the "falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater" example, Schenck v. United States, 1919).

There's room for difference of opinion on whether an individual circumstance crosses into the "Creating a clear and present danger" category, or apparently even whether the "clear and present danger" restriction is sound. I'd be willing to classify people who don't see a problem with shouting things intended to cause immediate harm 'free speech extremists,' for example.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#109

Post by smsm42 »

geofft wrote: post #35
syshum wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>responding with snark and condescension Tell me it is not soo... Not snark and condescension.... Why that is the most terribleist thing ever.... it makes me sad that we has a society seem to be reject the concept of Free Speech in favor of speech codes and acceptable Speech with punishment for anyone that does not use the "correct words"

If I go to an interview for a Python developer position, and I say "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," and I don't get the job, it would be ridiculous for anyone to say that I got punished for not using the correct words. This is the same thing. The Node.js TSC is the body that maintains and enforces the Code of Conduct. Maybe Node should have a CoC, maybe not, but so long as it has one, t…

> "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it,"

And if you say "there can be downsides to using Python, here's an article describing them" and the response is "you're fired, you infidel, how dare you to question The Sacredness!" then I probably don't want to work in that company.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#110

Post by fixermark »

scubapilot wrote: post #102
geofft wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I go to an interview for a Python developer position, and I say "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," and I don't get the job, it would be ridiculous for anyone to say that I got punished for not using the correct words. This is the same thing. The Node.js TSC is the body that maintains and enforces the Code of Conduct. Maybe Node should have a CoC, maybe not, but so long as it has one, t…

Let me stretch your analogy to make the opposite point: I am employed as an embedded developer. The position I was hired for has a heavy focus on C programming. I would never write the "C is stupid and nobody should use it anymore" articles, but I do still think they have merit and will share them around the company. As someone who knows how to read an argument and separate wheat from the chaff, I have been experimen…

Really, the language- or framework-based examples don't apply well because people aren't tools. CoCs generally protect people from bad behavior by other people, under the assumption that debating the merits of people the way you'd debate the merits of tools is, well, a dick move.
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