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Startups should not use React

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Re: Startups should not use React

#141
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is EXACTLY the point, as the only thing that gets revoked is the patent grant - not the software license.

That point is even clarified by the Facebook FAQ on the license, but it still seems to confuse most people.

Most people seem to just read the part in PATENTS where it talks about a "license" being revoked and go "I KNOW THIS" thinking it talks about a copyright license.

It's excusable if English is not your native language, but "license" doesn't have to mean "copyright license".

Re: Startups should not use React

#142
Facebook is like the Disney in the tech world. They want to be that trove of intellectual property.

They take free-to-use stuff (Disney is cheap ripoff of Hans Christian Anderson's fables), and create "magical" stuff that they protect with their arsenal of lawyers.

If Facebook is able to pull the wool over our eyes this time... OSS is gonna be in a bad place in the next century just like how Disney single-handedly lobbied to change public domain laws in America.

Re: Startups should not use React

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you didn't have the patent grant, then the default position would be that Facebook could take legal action against you if your use of React infringed any relevant patent they hold, whether you had sued them first or not. Ignoring (wilfully or otherwise) the PATENTS file doesn't make you any better off.

And it's existence doesn't make me any worse off? It only grants patents that I wouldn't by default have?

IANAL, but yes, that is my understanding.

Re: Startups should not use React

#144
post #139
post #87

Nerds shouldn't write opinion pieces about subject domains they don't understand. Seriously, stop this. Sometimes you just need to admit you have no idea what you're talking about and shut up. The author honestly thinks using Preact or Inferno could protect them from patent lawsuits. Oh, wait, maybe "Facebook holds any software patents on the Virtual DOM or the React APIs" so better use Vue and Cycle. Unless you actu…

Your argument is simply supporting my thesis. 1) I am not a lawyer, and my article simply analyses the compromises a company makes when adopting React (and other OSS projects licensed under the same terms), without going into Patent Law. Some lawyers think that the patent-related legal provisions are not enforceable anyway, but then it begs to ask the question. If they are not enforceable, why is Facebook so adamant…

> I am not a lawyer, and my article simply analyses the compromises a company makes when adopting React

No, your article is literally FUD. "I don't know what their goals are with this, so let's assume the worst". What could that be? Nobody knows, so let's assume it's really bad and you don't want it. F, U and D.

> I analysed 75+ projects from 35 companies (link: [1]), and none uses this license model. What's going on?

You're feigning surprise that no other company than Facebook provides a Facebook Open Source Patent Grant along with their BSD-licensed projects?

The only major licenses that contain patent grants are Apache 2 and GPL. As I'm not going to touch the GPL debate with a ten foot pole, that only leaves Apache 2 or no patent grant whatsoever. Turns out most projects just don't bother with patent grants.

There are good arguments for Apache 2. BSD+Patents seems to be a good compromise if you want a patent grant, but not one as unconditional as Apache's. This is not nefarious. This is literally more than the nothing 99.999% of non-GPL, non-Apache projects give you.

The only thing the PATENTS file does is remove the Heisenberg-esque "maybe a court finds this license implies some kind of patent grant or not" limbo the BSD would otherwise put the project in and replace it with a fixed set of legal certainties you can give your informed consent to or not.

> As I argue in my article, this kind of license may hurt the Open Source industry, more than it will benefit it.

I thought the point of your article was that startups shouldn't use it if they want to be acquired, oh wait, that's just the clickbait title to sell your opinion on.

Your entire "it's bad for OSS" argument boils down to a slippery slope of chilling effects. This is entirely conjecture. By your logic Microsoft would never have published ReactXP and React Native Windows. Google, Twitter, Amazon are actively using React in their products. Your argument falls flat if you even bother looking at the reality.

You defend your article by saying you don't want to be involved in flamewars because you're not a frontend developer. You're using intentionally provocative language to make a point about something you admittedly have no stake in.

Your article is trying to argue about open source purity but abuses a clickbait premise to garner attention in places like HN.

> So just stay away of problematic stuff.

Again, this shows you don't understand patents. ALL software is "problematic stuff". BSD+Patents, like Apache2 or GPL, provides certainty about a subset of patents. All other licenses provide only a vague sense of "probably the author won't sue me because that kind of fishing seems obviously unethical".

If you want to write an article about why React should be using Apache 2, write that fucking article. Don't try to cover it in startup-relevant buzzwords.

> 4) And as a result of the above, my stance is that I prefer to use a stack that grants me any patents unconditionally, or maybe with weak patent retaliation like the ASLv2 license, that's OK, i.e. I sue the holder over patents covering only the work I am using, I lose the patent grant for the work I'm using. Simple and symmetrical

Yes, you're an ASF contributor. Maybe you should lead with that instead of pretending you're impartial.

The world would be a better place if everyone used Apache 2. But what does that have to do with startup valuation? Stop spreading FUD.

> Would you rather relinquish your IP assertion rights with this "BSD-3 + strong patent retaliation" model, or would you rather pay $99/dev for a commercial license on React and not give Facebook any control?

Let me repeat what I just said: you don't understand patents. React works because it's open source. If React were closed source, it would be about as relevant as Sencha Ext. Not very. Try forking Preact/Inferno with a $99 "I bite any patent lawsuits levelled against you over this" license and see what happens. People don't care about patents.

> Would he have used LAMP if it entailed relinquishing any rights to initiate patent litigation?

Probably yes? He created Facebook as a one-off stupid thing in college. He might have migrated to something else afterwards. He might have open sourced that. Who knows? Who cares?

Again, none of this seems relevant to the headline: React supposedly being bad for startups because it hampers acquisition. You address this in a single section and the entire argument is a single pie-in-the-sky fictional scenario. None of your "empirical" claims back this argument up.

> React fan

Rich, coming from an ASF fan. Based on your logic I should assume you don't like BSD+Patents because it's incompatible with the ASF's purity requirements.

If you spent more time internet stalking me you would have noticed most of my work goes to Apache 2 licensed projects, not React. But that would not make a very good _ad hominem_.

I would love it if React switched to Apache 2. I would also love to see a lot of MIT/BSD projects switch to Apache 2. If it doesn't happen, I'm not losing sleep over it and neither should you.

Re: Startups should not use React

#145
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably why I'm still using Backbone - and actively pondering other options!

You think there aren't patents covering Backbone? Or any other part of your applications?

My concern isn't with Patents per se. It's mainly with the good faith of the originator of a particular piece of code. I mean yes there could be Patents covering everything and anything I ever do, but how would I assess such a thing. I haven't got much control over that side of things.

However, I can exercise judgement on the source. And my judgement on Facebook is that I never saw them do anything I liked.

Re: Startups should not use React

#146
> If there is no chance of igniting a community, there is no reason to open source.

I see most of this article as a dangerous way of thinking, but especially the above.

The mentality I get from this quote (especially combined with its context) is basically: I should only open source something I'm working on if I can build a community around it (that I control/influence/benefit from).

Open sourcing your software should be the default. If I make a tool or small library/function, I would more look for a reason NOT to open source it. When I can't think of one, I will open it up, regardless of whether or not there is a "chance of igniting a community".

Re: Startups should not use React

#147
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AFAIK Should I tell that to my investors? That AFA matthewmacleod on HN knows, we are good? > then all of the popular alternatives almost certainly infringe on them as well. But the lawsuit would be against those alternatives directly and not my company? I'm not sure about this, but I'm not also sure why we should be taking advice about this issue from non-experts.

You could easily use this argument against the writer of the original blog post. "Someone wrote a blog post saying React's license is bad"

That's a fair point. We really need some patent and license lawyers to weigh in on this and willing to put some skin in the game. I think Facebook should also be willing to change the license to clarify intent so they can't later use the license to do something other than what they claim they want to do: make software patents useless.

Re: Startups should not use React

#148
post #87

Nerds shouldn't write opinion pieces about subject domains they don't understand. Seriously, stop this. Sometimes you just need to admit you have no idea what you're talking about and shut up. The author honestly thinks using Preact or Inferno could protect them from patent lawsuits. Oh, wait, maybe "Facebook holds any software patents on the Virtual DOM or the React APIs" so better use Vue and Cycle. Unless you actu…

_You_ should stop, immediately. Attempting to silence an issue because people are not experts on the issue is beyond immoral. Please reflect on how you are hurting everyone, not helping.

First off, the commenter doesn't have the ability to silence anybody (presumably).

Regardless, spreading misinformation or at least doubtful information is only going to hurt a cause. Blindly lashing out at things you don't truly understand is foolish. Encouraging others to do so is dangerous.

There are several issues with the article itself, but I think one of the most damning actually comes from the updates/notes at the top. Namely, that the author is "neutral and unbiased". Nobody is completely without bias. Especially if you feel so strongly as to write an article.

Re: Startups should not use React

#149
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could easily use this argument against the writer of the original blog post. "Someone wrote a blog post saying React's license is bad"

That's a fair point. We really need some patent and license lawyers to weigh in on this and willing to put some skin in the game. I think Facebook should also be willing to change the license to clarify intent so they can't later use the license to do something other than what they claim they want to do: make software patents useless.

An IP lawyer has: https://medium.com/@dwalsh.sdlr/react-facebook-and-the-revok...

Re: Startups should not use React

#150
post #9

It's worth noting this "you can't sue us for violating your patents if you use our non-free open source software" is working as designed. Facebook claims that if every company adopted a React-like license, that software patents as we know it would basically die. It's worth noting that both Google and Facebook's patent lawyers are generally of the opinion that software patents are net bad, but differ in their opinions…

The patents clause does not restrict to software pattents, it applies to any patent. If I had any "normal" patents, I would stay far away from any open source project with this patent license (also I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice). I would never allow Facebook (or any company for that matter) to limit my legal rights. I understand that they need to protect themselves, but not at the cost of the damage that they are doing to the open source community.
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