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Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

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Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#261

Post by jameskegel »

humanrebar wrote: post #252
pjc50 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> somewhere that didn't absolutely suck to work People telling you that you're unprofessional can mean that you're the one making work suck for them.

To be fair, it can mean a lot of things. People use "unprofessional" to mean "I don't like that". It used to be unprofessional to wear jeans to work.

This is very true. Workplace regulations make it very hard to just get people to own up to their true emotions, so there's this HR dance that happens much like you described

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#262

Post by dilemma »

Powerofmene wrote: post #209
belorn wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true for literal everything in the universe, and is the basis for both a philosophical concept called Russell's teapot and a religious one by Richard Dawkins called Flying Spaghetti Monster. Without provable evidence there isn't much we can assert, so it lands on trust and which side people feel is right. The legal system follow closer the scientific model and demand that the case is proven rather than dispro…

However you are forgetting in our court systems evidence can be thrown out because it was not admitted according to the Rules of Civil/Criminal/Appellate Procedures. At that point it isn't about trust or what people feel, it is only about evidence a jury can consider. It would be akin to having to acquit someone you feel is quite because the state failed to make their case or because the state made their case but scr…

Completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#263

Post by pencilcode »

adekok wrote: post #257
Joeri wrote: post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

> sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. To play devils advocate, sexism is a thing everywhere . In some cases, there are good biological reasons why men and women are treated differently, e.g. child care (mostly women) versus hard physical labor (mostly men) Where those biological differences aren't effective (e.g. typing on a keyboard), then yes, men and women should be treated the same. But even with…

Just to nitpick an issue that some people mix up. On average more interest does not equate on average more skilled within the interested population. Also this gender diff does not play out so starkly in other sciences, eg biology, physics, etc. And, some decades ago in the west, and currently in other countries/civilizations, this gender difference does not pan out. This seems to point to other factors beyond genetic differences.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#264

Post by oh_sigh »

matt4077 wrote: post #212
oh_sigh wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions mean less to someone who already has it, and has a chance to make even more at perhaps even odds. If your net worth is 200k and you refuse the payout, that says much more than if you are worth 20m

Did you read what I was replying to? I was making an argument against the idea that she is somehow doing this for monetary gain. It doesn't matter how much she values money. If her chosen course of action is somewhat certain to pay less than the alternative, she is demonstrably not motivated (solely) by money.

Did you read my post? I was saying that perhaps she is indeed solely motivated by money. Turning down easy money in the chance to strike it big from the civil suit. If you only see the first part, then she apparently isn't motivated by money. But with the second part it becomes a possibility again.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#265

Post by Chris2048 »

Joeri wrote: post #216
ptaipale wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you don't understand it correctly, and I wonder how you can interpret it that way. I read the point that being "professional" is also about being able to do good programming work and take responsibility for what you do technically - not just appearing at the office at the right time, being courteous to other people and accepting HR buzzwords and policies and opinions without question.

My definition of professionalism is about treating your coworkers and customers with respect and empathy, and doing the work with dedication and craftsmanship. Appearing at the office at the right time is unnecessary just for appearance's sake, but can be a factor in respecting and empathizing with coworkers, for example to be available for questions. It is usually not that important in the grand scheme of things.

> treating your coworkers and customers with respect and empathy

This can be as subjective as the word professionalism. People always use their own value judgement in these things - whether it's deciding if something is professional, or not, or if something is respectful, or not.

Sometimes, you do have to just follow rules, for the sake of it, because there is no standard in personal value.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#266

Post by SBCRec »

pencilcode wrote: post #263
adekok wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. To play devils advocate, sexism is a thing everywhere . In some cases, there are good biological reasons why men and women are treated differently, e.g. child care (mostly women) versus hard physical labor (mostly men) Where those biological differences aren't effective (e.g. typing on a keyboard), then yes, men and women should be treated the same. But even with…

Just to nitpick an issue that some people mix up. On average more interest does not equate on average more skilled within the interested population. Also this gender diff does not play out so starkly in other sciences, eg biology, physics, etc. And, some decades ago in the west, and currently in other countries/civilizations, this gender difference does not pan out. This seems to point to other factors beyond genetic…

Could you provide a source please? Interested to read about it!

Thanks in Advance!

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#267

Post by imaginenore »

Joeri wrote: post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

She couldn't prove sexism in court. Twice now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pao_v._Kleiner_Perkins

Why would you defend false allegations by Pao? They hurt women that actually do experience it. They also give more evidence to the fact that women do use the system to get rich quick by suing in hopes of getting a massive settlement.

She should be condemned and her claims should not be used to demonstrate sexism, which is what you're trying to do.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#268

Post by oh_sigh »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #220
oh_sigh wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Healthy payout being maybe 5-10% of her net worth. Risking that for possibly doubling net worth seems reasonable. Going from say 20m to 22m isn't that big of a jump or a lifestyle differentiator.

At that stage, neither is going from 20 to 40 million.

Yes, it is

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#269

Post by heavenlyblue »

stonewhite wrote: post #143
archagon wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Empathy?

You don't just go around in a company naming a senior partner and his exploits for "Empathy", not when the stakes are that high.

She just realises that the issue she was against was well over her power, and the woman she was speaking to was even more powerless than her.

If you wish then a pragmatic decision here is to not let her out in the world knowing she'll basically kill herself. That's why kids should not speak to strangers.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#270

Post by arkh »

santoshalper wrote: post #180
namdnay wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Engineering in computer science has long been represented by a nearly nonexistent barrier to entry outside of one's capabilities and their relevance to the position [...] Your accomplishments and capabilities interviewing are ultimately what get the hire" I'd just like to highlight that this is specific to Silicon Valley, and maybe the wider startup/GAFA scene. It's definitely not the case in the "old school" in wh…

I've made it to CTO/CIO/EVP level positions in Fortune 500 companies with no college degree, though admittedly outlier technical and social skills. My anecdotal experience does not match what you are describing. That said, I also think the person you are replying to misses the point in a big way. Just because hiring managers aren't discriminating overtly doesn't mean there are not serious sexism problems in the indus…

"the gross/creepy sausage-factory that is many IT shops"

Not sure the sexism is where you think it is.

"How do you think that is going to go when a woman joins his team and it's time to take down the porno wallpaper?"

I think you have not worked in a lot of IT shops. Never saw any porno items in there. Only shop I've seen porno wallpapers was in an auto parts warehouse and only in the male changing room.

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