Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t • Hacker News Board

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#121

Post by _Codemonkeyism » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:29 AM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #41

I think that it's really interesting that conversations about venture capital and conversations about engineering both get to be lumped into a more general conversation about sexism in Silicon Valley. A lot of engineers have a good bit to say against the existence of widespread sexism in engineering, myself included. Engineering in computer science has long been represented by a nearly nonexistent barrier to entry ou…

I agree with your "how utilitarian the hiring process is" but be aware that this starts earlier. As a CTO I was wondering how to hire more women for more diversity [1] because not enough women applied. After going to girls camps, meetups, talking to women with not much success (not due to the women), I asked some female engineers - especially one from Soundcloud, thanks! They told me my job ad is already wrong. This opened my eyes and the world was no longer the same.

It caters to males with: We give you 1,2,3 and want you to have skills 4,5,6. Having having several job ads targetting several audiences helps a lot e.g. fresh from university, senior developers who have seen it all, women, dads who want 9-5.

[1] essenially more diversity results in better ideas and market fit with a tradeoff of less productivity measured in quantity

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#122

Post by matt4077 » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:29 AM UTC

tnone wrote: post #112

Assuming this is all true, it would confirm my suspicion that when people talk about techbros, they're talking about the rich 0.001% handling the money rather than the vast bulk of the sector. Conflating the two is eminently useful to some, but it has no bearing on most of the people here. It's a fight of the elite, using popular talking points and media influence to wage a battle using the reputations of tens of tho…

Yeah, she explicitly mentions that vanity fair article.

Among other things, she calls out vanity fair for questioning her marriage, based on the fact that her husband had had previous relationships with men.

It's also somewhat strange how you're trying character assassination by proxy. And that this is a four-year old article, so the story apparently didn't actually go anywhere.

I also believe she does a good job of outlining how the treatment of women is distinct from a general "you have to be aggressive" style of workplace behaviour. What often strikes me most unfair is how women get told to be aggressive ("own the room", as it's called in the article), but then easily faulted for being too aggressive. "Shrill" is one of these words reserved for women only.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#123

Post by tnone » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:29 AM UTC

moomin wrote: post #100

ramblerman wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "paid army of trolls" would definitely explain the campaign against her. She banned a number of subreddits, including /r/fatpeoplehate and revengeporn. A move that strikes pretty deep at what people consider to be an open platform where votes define everything. Subsequently she fired Victoria Taylor, an incredibly popular moderator at /r/ama. This combined with the perceived idea that threads discussing these issue…

As others have pointed out, none of this is particularly accurate. It is, however, true that a) she was a high profile woman due to her court case b) there exists a misogynistic troll army* that targets high profile women especially in tech c) all that you describe gave them ammunition. What it didn't do was make her a target, she already was. *Someone else took issue with the phrase "paid army of trolls". The existe…

There are trolls on the internet, but pretending it's a unified front is a ploy only useful to those seeking to play out their victim status.

Pao got roasted on reddit because she became the figurehead for widely unpopular community changes. At best you could say she was set up as the patsy by Reddit's board.

GamerGate was a cluster fuck where existing troll groups like GNAA and BWC jumped in, as did the nihilistic lolcow milkers of baphomet and kiwifarms. But the whole thing was started by a scandal over an ex helldump member, whose anti harassment group was later caught doxing and harassing, and whose posse got caught false flagging in the Social Autopsy drama. To pretend like GG is a misogynist troll army means falling for the narrative set out by the media the movement accused while ignoring the realities of the spheres in which it took place.

GG is also not right wing, as Brad Glasgow's research showed, so associating it with the alt-right is more idiotic narrative spinning. Like when feminists lump together MRA, red pill and mgtow as some sort of unholy woman hating underbelly, instead of the 3 very different things that they are.

None of this has been objectively covered, nobody bothered to investigate, only to do what the article above does: feature one sided profiles of self declared victims who stood to gain a lot from that portrayal. Visit r/KotakuInAction for instance and observe how what was claimed to be a "smoke screen" for hate is still going 3 years later, still covering abject failures in reporting, while banning all harassment.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#124

Post by icebraining » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:31 AM UTC

ramblerman wrote: post #76

jmkni wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way she was treated, though, was disgusting. I have zero doubt that her gender/ethnicity was a major motivating factor for the majority of people involved in this backlash and that a white male in the same position would have pretty much gotten a pass from the same people. /r/fatpeoplehate and /r/revengeporn where two incredibly toxic subreddits, and I was personally happy to see them go.

> /r/fatpeoplehate and /r/revengeporn where two incredibly toxic subreddits, and I was personally happy to see them go. I agree, but we were discussing motive. It's not unfair to expect reddit's leadership to have some insight into its userbase. If I took ownership of vogue tomorrow and introduced articles about bmx racing, that would be a dumb move. I could complain that the readership doesn't understand bmx racing…

Or maybe they understood the userbase very well, and hence got themselves a sacrificial lamb before banning those subreddits.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#125

Post by Boothroid » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:32 AM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #115

Boothroid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pao's appointment at Reddit always struck me as odd. Was she really the best person they could find?

Well, obviously she was the best person, otherwise they would not have hired her. The definition of "best" is malleable. You may not understand the reasons why they chose her, but clearly they had them.

Are you able to outline these reasons? Because to me it seems like they were making a political point. What special experience did she have that made her a perfect match for that role, other than being a professional victim with poor judgement?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#126

Post by js8 » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:32 AM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #94

BadassFractal wrote: post #24

Nobody I know in the SV founder/investor scene talks openly about their sex worker preferences, their porn habits or desperately tries to trick their coworkers into surprise romantic weekends together. However, I'm clearly not exposed to the demographic that is all about that, and I'd love to know more about it. What is it about that group of people that makes them behave that way? Do they feel they're too powerful t…

You wouldn't necessarily be exposed to that if you're a man or not challenging your perceived place in the hierarchy. The talking about porn etc may just have been a clumsy attempt to put the woman in her place by making her feel uncomfortable, didn't work so he switched to talking about sex workers. It's just a tactic for asserting power and dominance. If she wasn't there taking a place he sees as for a man, it woul…

> It's just a tactic for asserting power and dominance.

I think you're right. I haven't read through the article yet but my opinion is that for the most part, social hierarchy is a cultural mechanism to select alpha males. So women who think they should participate in that are seriously misguided, like a deer doe who wants to participate in deer dueling.

In other words, they (rightfully) reject a biological urge for women (which is to be caring mother, more or less) and accept (wrongly) a biological urge for men, which is to take risk and climb the social hierarchy at any cost.

But it doesn't make any sense, the world is actually not a dichotomy between males and females and much larger than that. I think women who want equality (or just want to exercise free will and thus disregard some of our original biology) should support democracy (as opposed to authoritarian hierarchy), first and foremost. Even in the workplace.

In short - I cannot sympathize with her (and other female C*Os, who complain about sexism). She's decided to play a game of thrones, so she is on her own. If she really wants equality between people (not just "sexes"), then maybe we can talk, you can find me on the left.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#127

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:32 AM UTC

Boothroid wrote: post #120

moomin wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have pointed out, none of this is particularly accurate. It is, however, true that a) she was a high profile woman due to her court case b) there exists a misogynistic troll army* that targets high profile women especially in tech c) all that you describe gave them ammunition. What it didn't do was make her a target, she already was. *Someone else took issue with the phrase "paid army of trolls". The existe…

People say similar things about the alt-left and Soros.

[deleted]

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#128

Post by stonewhite » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:32 AM UTC

I can't help but feel that this story doesn't really add up.

  > I recommended that she not report it.

She is sharing her story with her team, possibly seeking ways of retribution, and when she finds out a story that can help her cause, and _this_ is her response? To what end?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#129

Post by namdnay » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:33 AM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #41

I think that it's really interesting that conversations about venture capital and conversations about engineering both get to be lumped into a more general conversation about sexism in Silicon Valley. A lot of engineers have a good bit to say against the existence of widespread sexism in engineering, myself included. Engineering in computer science has long been represented by a nearly nonexistent barrier to entry ou…

> Engineering in computer science has long been represented by a nearly nonexistent barrier to entry outside of one's capabilities and their relevance to the position [...] Your accomplishments and capabilities interviewing are ultimately what get the hire"

I'd just like to highlight that this is specific to Silicon Valley, and maybe the wider startup/GAFA scene. It's definitely not the case in the "old school" in which 90% of software engineers work. If you're looking for a developer job in Accenture Bangalore, Citigroup London, or Lufthansa IT Frankfurt, I guarantee that your diploma matters more than your capabilities.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#130

Post by archagon » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:33 AM UTC

stonewhite wrote: post #128

I can't help but feel that this story doesn't really add up. > I recommended that she not report it. She is sharing her story with her team, possibly seeking ways of retribution, and when she finds out a story that can help her cause, and _this_ is her response? To what end?

Empathy?