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Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

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Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#81

Post by grey-area »

ralusek wrote: post #41

I think that it's really interesting that conversations about venture capital and conversations about engineering both get to be lumped into a more general conversation about sexism in Silicon Valley. A lot of engineers have a good bit to say against the existence of widespread sexism in engineering, myself included. Engineering in computer science has long been represented by a nearly nonexistent barrier to entry ou…

I don't find it remotely hard to believe that Ellen Pao's recounting of her experience in the world of venture capital is far from the truth.

What, specifically, makes you say that?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#82

Post by bitwize »

ralusek wrote: post #64
icebraining wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find it remotely hard to believe that Ellen Pao's recounting of her experience in the world of venture capital is far from the truth Can you clarify this? I'm confused because it seems at odds with the rest of your post.

My point is that a lot of engineers get very annoyed when the topic of "sexism in Silicon Valley" is brought up, because anybody who is in a hiring position for specifically engineering knows exactly how utilitarian the hiring process is. For positions and treatment of individuals working in venture capital, however, I don't imagine very many engineers would have much to weigh in on. So what I'm getting at is that I'…

No, it's not utilitarian. Cultural fit dominates as a hiring criterion in software dev, and "cultural fit" can be a proxy for racism, sexism, any sort of discrimination you can think of.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#83

Post by dmitrygr »

nip wrote: post #73

Are some comments moderated (deleted without the deleted mention)? There was a really interesting comment (turning into a thread) about the double standards of women but I can't find it anywhere anymore.

Yes. Same reason you cannot reply to the first comment from dang or flag this post. This IS the party line

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#84

Post by Inconel »

grabcocque wrote: post #70
Inconel wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't Asians fairly well represented in tech, particularly at the larger SV firms? If they're trying to keep things exclusively White, I'm not sure they're doing a great job of it. This of course isn't to say that bias/discrimination isn't a problem and that there isn't a ton of progress to be made on hiring employees of diverse backgrounds. Slightly tangential, but what's the generally accepted definition of "techb…

Probably, because Asians are positively stereotyped as being good at STEM. But a stereotype is still a stereotype.

It's late, and sometimes my reading comprehension sucks, so just to be extra clear, are you suggesting that the representation of Asians in tech is due to the stereotype of Asians being good at STEM and not the fact that Asians are well represented in STEM fields at the college/university level, and subsequently are mostly likely quite competent in these fields which are often required in the tech industry?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#85

Post by Boothroid »

Asdfbla wrote: post #59
ramblerman wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "paid army of trolls" would definitely explain the campaign against her. She banned a number of subreddits, including /r/fatpeoplehate and revengeporn. A move that strikes pretty deep at what people consider to be an open platform where votes define everything. Subsequently she fired Victoria Taylor, an incredibly popular moderator at /r/ama. This combined with the perceived idea that threads discussing these issue…

>Subsequently she fired Victoria Taylor, an incredibly popular moderator at /r/ama. She didn't. Alexis Ohanian did: https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/13/details-emerge-abo... She actually did very few of the things the Reddit witchhunt accused her of. The whole Pao affair was just another dark period that showed how insane online communities can really be.

Pao's appointment at Reddit always struck me as odd. Was she really the best person they could find?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#86

Post by woodman »

Her complaints about the office politics make up the bulk of the text - I experienced much the same as a man. Her complaints about woman specific issues, like accidentally having an affair or being upset about not being able to take off 4 months in an insanely competitive industry... I'm not terribly impressed.

The sex talk complaint is interesting though - consider whatever emotional response you've arrived at, but with a slight twist: a straight man having to listen to gay men talk about gay porn stars. So what are we talking about here, 'don't ask don't tell'? Because I'm totally fine with that - I don't enjoying hearing the sexual fantasies of my coworkers (regardless of orientation), anybody know why that didn't work for the military?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#87

Post by [deleted] »

grabcocque wrote: post #53

It often seems like the whole Valley scene is just a hotbed of reactionary techbros doing their darnedest to keep tech White and Male. The thing is, I thought the tech scene was supposed to be progressive and enlightened, but increasingly frequently it is not. It feels to me like this sort of Valley is increasingly looking like a dinosaur, a worldview and mindset we should be striving to move away from if the tech sc…

[deleted]

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#88

Post by Powerofmene »

peoplewindow wrote: post #72
grabcocque wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it as "our biases are subconscious". A lot of the white men being jerks to their female and ethnic minority colleagues aren't aware they're doing it, or if they are it's justified because it's a "meritocracy" and the techbros ascribe significantly more merit to whiteness and especially maleness.

Given that reality is subjective, how would you separate "lots of men are being jerks and don't realise" from "lots of women are hyper-sensitive to perceived slights that aren't there and don't realise it"? I've seen so many accusations of sexism in tech by now that I tire of it. When investigated, it seems to always boil down to one of two things: 1. Some guy hit on me and I thought it was gross^Wharassment. 2. I fe…

>All too often the latter feels like women (and male feminists) on a power trip. The feelings of being offended aren't real, it's just a way to convince/force others to do what they want.

Please explain this statement further. I am trying to understand how the person who is harassed is the person with the power or on a power trip as you put it. Wouldn't the best way to avoid such a scenario be to avoid the circumstance of making unwanted or unwelcome statements? How in the world can you definitely tell the feelings of being offended are not real?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#90

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

ternaryoperator wrote: post #30

For a fairly interesting summary of KP's replies / defense, see this article [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pao_v._Kleiner_Perkins

This bit is interesting:

> The defense also argued that Pao was paid more than most of her male colleagues. While salaries had previously been redacted from legal documents, the trial revealed that Pao's salary after bonuses eventually reached a peak of $560,000.

It would be interested to know the salaries of people who had the exactly same position before and after her. If the salaries are at the same level, it's difficult to talk about discrimination.

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