Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t • Hacker News Board

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#191

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 10:37 AM UTC

grabcocque wrote: post #53

It often seems like the whole Valley scene is just a hotbed of reactionary techbros doing their darnedest to keep tech White and Male. The thing is, I thought the tech scene was supposed to be progressive and enlightened, but increasingly frequently it is not. It feels to me like this sort of Valley is increasingly looking like a dinosaur, a worldview and mindset we should be striving to move away from if the tech sc…

There's a range of individuals, and significant differences between front-line technical and management / finance / investment types.

I recall several stories from the 1990s / eary 2000s dot-com boom that were similarly blood-curdling / cringeworthy.

One involved a chief executive with a thing for his (male) adminstrative assistants.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#192

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 10:39 AM UTC

Powerofmene wrote: post #51

khazhoux wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is it about that group of people that makes them behave that way? Your question overgeneralizes. You're attributing to the group, the qualities of a small number of individuals.

In a word, power.

"Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is Power."

-- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, Book 1, Chapter 5

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_...

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#193

Post by vertex-four » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 10:41 AM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #166

yorwba wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please quote a part of vertex-four's comment where they claim that Damore's memo explains that women are inferior. Charitable readings and all that. Although vertex-four probably did mean to imply what you are challenging, I can still agree with the denotation. Someone who gives a scientific explanation (or worse, a "scientific" "explanation") for the status quo to suggest that nothing can be changed about it, would…

I don't understand why anyone should feel offended about someone using a "scientific explanation" in that way. Shouldn't we laugh at and ridicule those people for their outdated beliefs? What's there to be offended about by something that isn't true?

It can be difficult to laugh at an idea when you see widespread evidence of it from multiple sources on a regular basis, unfortunately.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#194

Post by oh_sigh » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 10:43 AM UTC

Powerofmene wrote: post #105

trabant00 wrote: post #65

One thing to remember: it's only one side of the story from somebody who had/has serious financial interest depending on the outcome of the scandal. It kind of worries me how most comments take the allegations for granted.

It is true that she had a financial interest (how serious is unknown) depending on the outcome, but she could have walked away with probably a healthy payout had she signed the non-disparage agreement that is commonplace in these situations.

Healthy payout being maybe 5-10% of her net worth. Risking that for possibly doubling net worth seems reasonable. Going from say 20m to 22m isn't that big of a jump or a lifestyle differentiator.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#195

Post by humanrebar » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 10:44 AM UTC

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #155

new299 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give a more explicit example of how the job Ad should look? I don't quite understand.

(These are generalizations as happens with marketing personas [1] - individual targetting with ads would be better, also for real I would spend more than 5 min to create those personas) Many women are more self-critical than many men. So if you have a huge list of needed skills, women might apply less often. Do write only the really relevant skills, don't copy and past from previous apps. Do not require what can easi…

A bit off topic, but I think the whole "shiny toy" perspective misses a lot. Both junior and senior developers are fundamentally thinking about maximizing the value they get from their employment. The value generally isn't "fun" and "shiny". I suspect that maps somewhat accurately to what a junior developer wants, but mostly because they don't have enough context (yet) to distinguish between "shiny" and "great for my career".

Anyway, the pitch for all of the above is "This job will be great for your career". Describe to junior developers what their next resume will look like. Lists of shiny tech probably work, but honestly think about what a great 3-5 year resume looks like and help them blow that out of the water. Describe to a senior developer how they'll have more agency and autonomy, how they'll be helping steer the organization at a strategic level, etc. A senior developer wants to be working on promising tech, but they need to be able to call shots at the same time. Otherwise, they're just a more experienced associate developer.

Or maybe the job won't be amazing for their career. I guess that's fine, but in that case you should be describing other benefits that make up for that.

All of that goes for all candidates: Male, female, married, single, junior, and senior. "Here's why this will be the best job you can take right now."

Other than the hostile and draining work environment, Pao's biggest complaint was that her employer wasn't giving her the career opportunities she thought she deserved. It wasn't tech but the major differences is what a shot looks like in an investment role versus a development role.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#196

Post by belorn » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 10:45 AM UTC

Powerofmene wrote: post #168

zakk wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "rightful reasons" Not according to the judge. You may say they were rightful, and many people are discussing it. But at the same time you have to understand that a person trained and appointed to determine if the reasons are rightful, said they are not. That's were the story started to have two sides.

Let's remember that lack of provable evidence does not mean that the harassment and retaliation did not occur. It simply means she did not prove her case with admissible evidence in order to win in court. Short of having an audio or video tape, a couple witnesses, or written documents of propositions or threats to ruin her career at KP, she was in a he said she said scenario.

This is true for literal everything in the universe, and is the basis for both a philosophical concept called Russell's teapot and a religious one by Richard Dawkins called Flying Spaghetti Monster. Without provable evidence there isn't much we can assert, so it lands on trust and which side people feel is right. The legal system follow closer the scientific model and demand that the case is proven rather than disproved.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#197

Post by camus2 » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 10:46 AM UTC

pervycreeper wrote: post #101

camus2 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "paid army of trolls" Unless she has proof, it's a conspiracy theory, "trolls" don't need to be paid to be trolls. People are naturally mean on the internet. Especially on reddit. So trolls paid by whom to do what? she didn't lose her lawsuit because of people on the internet. She lost because she didn't have a case.

>In response to my suit, Kleiner hired a powerful crisis-management PR firm, Brunswick. On their website, they bragged about having troll farms — “integrated networks of influence,” used in part for “reputation management” — and I believe they enlisted one to defame me online. The "I believe" is the operative phrase in this allegation. It's not implausible, however. Comments everywhere on topics where powerful agent…

> The "I believe" is the operative phrase in this allegation.

I doesn't make it a fact. It makes the author look like they are paranoid, and it has absolutely no bearing in the verdict of their case. But it says a lot about their personality. One cannot use that type of argument and be expected to be taken seriously, unless one actually bring evidence that a particular firm engaged in harassment, which is a serious accusation since I'm pretty sure it's illegal.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#198

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 10:46 AM UTC

Sexism in Silicon Valley or sexism among the corporate elites?

I doubt the average tech worker, who doesn't travel in private jets, casually talks about porn actresses and sex workers at their job.

However, I have often heard and read such anecdotes about elite executives, also in non-tech sectors. I'd say that kind of attitude is more related to the impunity that comes with power than with tech or non-tech.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#199

Post by oh_sigh » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 10:47 AM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #111

trabant00 wrote: post #65

One thing to remember: it's only one side of the story from somebody who had/has serious financial interest depending on the outcome of the scandal. It kind of worries me how most comments take the allegations for granted.

She was offered a multi-million payoff to stay silent. Sure, maybe she believes her book will earn her more. But she'd need to write the #1 or 2 non-fiction book of the year to get there.

Millions mean less to someone who already has it, and has a chance to make even more at perhaps even odds.

If your net worth is 200k and you refuse the payout, that says much more than if you are worth 20m

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#200

Post by Powerofmene » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 10:48 AM UTC

Boothroid wrote: post #184

Powerofmene wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discrimination and harassment laws are gender neutral and sexual preference neutral. If you are sexually harassed by someone in the workplace, female or male, you have the right to file a complaint and/or a lawsuit. If you are discriminated against because of age, disability, religion, orientation, etc, then skin color is not relevant. Skin color is relevant if you are discriminated against because of your race.

Point is, if you are one of these protected groups you can dress up regular assholery as discrimination.

True but then isn't it incumbent on those around the jerk to say "not cool." Bottom line is a hostile workplace can be a hostile workplace whether from assholery or blatant sexual harassment.

Some would say that gay jokes are assholery but to someone who is gay it may create a hostile work environment. Neither are appropriate. The take away is be aware of your environment, you words and your actions because they all matter.