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Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

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Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#101

Post by pervycreeper »

camus2 wrote: post #62
probably_wrong wrote: post #27

Interesting read. I wonder if the "paid army of trolls" she mentions followed her to Reddit. That would definitely explain the campaign against her.

> "paid army of trolls" Unless she has proof, it's a conspiracy theory, "trolls" don't need to be paid to be trolls. People are naturally mean on the internet. Especially on reddit. So trolls paid by whom to do what? she didn't lose her lawsuit because of people on the internet. She lost because she didn't have a case.

>In response to my suit, Kleiner hired a powerful crisis-­management PR firm, Brunswick. On their website, they bragged about having troll farms — “integrated networks of influence,” used in part for “reputation management” — and I believe they enlisted one to defame me online.

The "I believe" is the operative phrase in this allegation. It's not implausible, however. Comments everywhere on topics where powerful agents have interests (i.e. everything) seem to be subject to a great deal of astroturfing. The existence of groups that do this is not disputed. The trend seems to be getting a lot more pronounced lately, just by my personal observation.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#102

Post by borntyping »

woodman wrote: post #86

Her complaints about the office politics make up the bulk of the text - I experienced much the same as a man. Her complaints about woman specific issues, like accidentally having an affair or being upset about not being able to take off 4 months in an insanely competitive industry... I'm not terribly impressed. The sex talk complaint is interesting though - consider whatever emotional response you've arrived at, but…

"Don't ask, don't tell" meant something very different in the US military - barring openly LGBT people from service, but allowing "closeted" LGBT people to serve.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#103

Post by matt4077 »

woodman wrote: post #86

Her complaints about the office politics make up the bulk of the text - I experienced much the same as a man. Her complaints about woman specific issues, like accidentally having an affair or being upset about not being able to take off 4 months in an insanely competitive industry... I'm not terribly impressed. The sex talk complaint is interesting though - consider whatever emotional response you've arrived at, but…

Wow, so much to unravel.

First: "Don't ask, don't tell" wasn't about sharing your sexual fantasies in minute details. It was simply about your sexual orientation, and it was discriminatory because it was obviously accepted to mention your opposite-gendered spouse, or have a photo of them somewhere people would see it.

And since you experienced the same as a man: how often did one of your superiors set up a fake meeting on the other side of the continent, which then turned into an attempted 'romantic getaway'. Did you also have to physically push him out of your hotel room, where he showed up in his bathrobe?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#105

Post by Powerofmene »

trabant00 wrote: post #65

One thing to remember: it's only one side of the story from somebody who had/has serious financial interest depending on the outcome of the scandal. It kind of worries me how most comments take the allegations for granted.

It is true that she had a financial interest (how serious is unknown) depending on the outcome, but she could have walked away with probably a healthy payout had she signed the non-disparage agreement that is commonplace in these situations.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#106

Post by Joeri »

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be.

I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up the hierarchy than you can make it impossible to do your job, so that behavior is clearly unprofessional. But getting yelled at by your boss for shipping a bug is also unprofessional, and can also make it a toxic work environment. I'm not saying the two are the same, just that both are examples of unprofessional behavior that many places will tolerate.

Isn't it time we have conversations about what it means to be a professional in tech? Maybe other industries suffer less from these things because they have a longer history and have more guild-like working practices, where professional behavior is more clearly defined. In tech people get away with wildly unprofessional behavior as long as "they get stuff done", and personally I never felt that was acceptable.

Maybe this stuff is also sort of everywhere. Plenty of industries have toxic working relationships. Why isn't professionalism part of standard education tracks? I studied CS and I never learned about what it means to be a professional software developer. How do you have productive conversations with coworkers? How do you organize your work effectively? All of these things you're supposed to figure out on your own, but looking around I can tell that mostly people never do, or only do so after decades of getting it wrong.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#107

Post by archagon »

zakk wrote: post #93
GoToRO wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First time that I read a comment that reminds everybody that this is only one side of the story. Do you make the same comment on all stories? and if not, why not?

I think it's clear that the other side of the story is a concept that applies chiefly to controversial stories. And this story is extremely controverial. No wonder people rightfully remind there's another side.

Person sues powerful firm for rightful reasons → powerful firm hires people to stir the mud → mud-stirrers create controversy → story now has "two sides" → balance fallacy causes powerful firm to come out on top in the public eye.

I think it's also important to remember this pattern. It's been coming up a lot in recent years.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#108

Post by the-dude »

Joeri wrote: post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

Why: because money, she is promoting her book. Tech: she wasn't in tech at Klein, Perkings sjizzle-my-nizzle, she was in finance.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#109

Post by pjc50 »

dmitrygr wrote: post #98
Powerofmene wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lawsuits filed consistently in courts throughout the US that say differently.

Edit: very very few filed and very few won

Took less than 30 seconds to find a counterexample http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/20/lenscrafters-settle...

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#110

Post by narag »

dmitrygr wrote: post #91

Yes. But as a man you're not allowed to complain about that. Men cannot be discriminated against or harassed. /S

You mark your comment as sarcasm, but that point has been made seriously many times. There's no discrimination if you're part of the powerful majority, even if as an individual you're powerless. It's fair or it isn't, IDK, but it's no joke, that's for sure.
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