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Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

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Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#111

Post by InclinedPlane »

Chathamization wrote: post #85
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mars seems cool in the abstract--"explore another world!"--but its just a big, completely dead desert. I'm betting the novelty of it will wear of in an hour (tops) of landing there. Have you ever been backpacking in a desert, mountains, wilderness? It continues to be amazing for days. Anything that new and different definitely induces novelty more tha…

> Have you ever been backpacking in a desert, mountains, wilderness? To be outdoors in the vast wilderness teaming with life, breathing fresh air, being able to wander off in any direction you feel like does have a certain amount of appeal. If you went to Mars, though, you would never be able to do this again in your life. You'd never be able to breath fresh air again. You'd never be able to stand outside on your own…

Why do you think this way?

Colonists on Mars would have to build almost everything. But is there anything stopping them from building parks and forests? It will be tremendously difficult but they absolutely will do it, it's human nature. What they miss, they'll build. They'll spend much of the first years building up the rudiments of industry. Methane and Oxygen production will be there from day one. They'll start by mining water ice to allow them to produce arbitrary amounts of methane, oxygen, water, Hydrogen, and carbon monoxide. They'll use that to kickstart other industrial infrastructure like production of iron/steel, glass, concrete, plastic, etc. All of which can begin in only a handful of years past the initial colonization and get going with a minimal amount of capital equipment. They'll move on to expanding their habitat, building greenhouses, growing food. And from there they will increase the carrying capacity of their habitat(s) and the capabilities of their industrial base continually. Then it's just a matter of time until they have the ability to build parks and forests, things they'll want to get started on sooner rather than later.

They won't have the redwoods or the amazon rainforest but they'll have lakes to swim in and trees to walk under.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#112

Post by sqeaky »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #84
thaumaturgy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am someone who has wanted to go to Mars for many years now. I first thought about it when I was about 8 years old -- 30 years ago. I'm still enthusiastic about it, although I doubt I'd have the skill sets or youth to participate given the current timeline. I expect Mars would be too much the opposite of boring. We'd be trying to live in an environment that, as far as we know, doesn't support any life at all. It is…

There are people who are attracted to the idea of living in a smaller community in a completely alien environment. Stated like this, I have more empathy for such a community of Mars settlers if viewed as a lark and a kind of "oddball" enterprise, rather than what Mars colonists seem to be portrayed as now which is "SAVIORS OF HUMANITY." The idea of having a human colony on Mars is absurd to me, and the idea that we s…

It won't always be a tiny community. Virginia an New york where both once tiny colonies.

The scale of a ship to mars today is not so dissimilar from the scale of boats across the Atlantic then.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#113

Post by jcriddle4 »

maxxxxx wrote: post #8

I remember a talk by a NASA guy that a first try would be to land some people with limited supplies on the Antarctic and let them live autonomously for a few years. He said before we go to Mars we need the ability to do this easily.

The Mars Society has been doing a reduced version of this for several years now with different groups of volunteers. I think they use two different locations, with one being in a Antarctic like location.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#114

Post by jcriddle4 »

jerf wrote: post #68
0xffff2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the bone density problems actually a problem if you never plan to return to Earth?

We don't know. If the bones are "adapting" to a lower gravity, and stop getting weaker at some point, then it may be OK. If the bones are losing strength all the time, then it may not be. And, of course, bones are not monolithic atomic objects but complex living things. Different parts of them may be described by either of those two cases, or others.

Also I haven't seen any data on what happens if you break a bone in low or zero gravity. Would it even heal?

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#115

Post by yahna »

baron816 wrote: post #24

I think there are going to be some very serious mental health issues for people trying to colonize Mars, especially if they're taking a one way trip. First, you have to deal with a different day-night cycle and the reduced gravity. That stuff matters for humans who have gotten used to 24 hour days and 9.807 m/s^2 gravity over the last 200,000 years. Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mar…

The mars day isn't all that much longer than the earth one.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#116

Post by yahna »

zeristor wrote: post #37
baron816 wrote: post #24

I think there are going to be some very serious mental health issues for people trying to colonize Mars, especially if they're taking a one way trip. First, you have to deal with a different day-night cycle and the reduced gravity. That stuff matters for humans who have gotten used to 24 hour days and 9.807 m/s^2 gravity over the last 200,000 years. Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mar…

This was the most annoying thing about the film The Martian for me. Everyone crows about the science, but I've not heard anything about the psychological trauma someone marooned and isolated on an alien planet for several months would go through. I imagine it would be something on a par with the Dancing plagues of Strasbourg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_Plague_of_1518 But without the cheesy disco music.

Well he was taking crushed up vicodin and acting pretty odd during that movie.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#117

Post by elihu »

baron816 wrote: post #24

I think there are going to be some very serious mental health issues for people trying to colonize Mars, especially if they're taking a one way trip. First, you have to deal with a different day-night cycle and the reduced gravity. That stuff matters for humans who have gotten used to 24 hour days and 9.807 m/s^2 gravity over the last 200,000 years. Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mar…

It's doubtful we'd send people to Mars as a one-way trip (though some regard that as a reasonable cost-cutting measure). The day-night cycle is almost the same. We don't know what extended time in ~40% gravity would be like, but people have lived for an extended time in zero G, which is a much more extreme change. Sailors on submarines have survived in tight quarters without natural sunlight or wide-open spaces for extended periods of time.

I think you're thinking of a trip to Mars in the most pessimistic terms possible: a small team of explorers with no return trip and they live out the rest of their days in a tiny RV buried under the Martian soil and totally dependent on Earth for supplies and entertainment and no possibility of meeting anyone new.

Consider a different possibility: a smallish community growing into a large community by periodic waves of immigration and shipments of equipment needed to establish self-sufficient infrastructure. Ships travel back and forth, so trips are possible. Living and working spaces are small at first, but are constantly being expanded by continuous construction. You can live and work with interesting people on an ambitious project to establish a permanent human presence in a hostile environment.

We don't really know which of these alternatives is going to be a more accurate description of the situation presenting itself to the first Martian settlers, but we'll have a good idea which it's going to be before sending anyone. And if it looks like it's going to be a miserable experience and way too expensive, well, we can wait another decade or so and let the technology mature.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#118

Post by elihu »

0xffff2 wrote: post #39
justin66 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody actually knows what an extended period living in 38% of Earth-normal gravity will do to a person. It seems probable that there will be bone density problems that might not be correctable with any existing drug or exercise regimen, but there's no evidence it will be as systematically debilitating as living for an extended period in microgravity.

Are the bone density problems actually a problem if you never plan to return to Earth?

One of the interesting arguments for colonization of Mars is that it could be a good place for old people with serious joint problems. There are likely quite a few people who would be in wheelchairs on Earth but could walk around just fine on Mars.

It sounds terrible to suggest sending your elderly relatives to an old folks home on Mars, though.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#120

Post by stouset »

elihu wrote: post #117
baron816 wrote: post #24

I think there are going to be some very serious mental health issues for people trying to colonize Mars, especially if they're taking a one way trip. First, you have to deal with a different day-night cycle and the reduced gravity. That stuff matters for humans who have gotten used to 24 hour days and 9.807 m/s^2 gravity over the last 200,000 years. Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mar…

It's doubtful we'd send people to Mars as a one-way trip (though some regard that as a reasonable cost-cutting measure). The day-night cycle is almost the same. We don't know what extended time in ~40% gravity would be like, but people have lived for an extended time in zero G, which is a much more extreme change. Sailors on submarines have survived in tight quarters without natural sunlight or wide-open spaces for e…

Okay, but why? What is anyone's purpose for going to mars en masse? Migration to the New World was spurred on by the promise of wealth, resources, and independence from existing governments.

The latter is utterly implausible when you consider the total dependence colonists would have upon supply from the nations they're hypothetically fleeing. The former, well, again I suspect dependence upon supplies from the home-planet puts colonists on an extremely poor footing for negotiation.

I'm just not seeing the case for why large groups of people would feel compelled to make the trip at obscene cost.

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