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Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

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Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#81

Post by thaumaturgy »

grondilu wrote: post #77
theothermkn wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Colonization has usually moved the larger human society forward a little, with new forms of governance, new materials, new technologies or techniques for daily life. I would really like to see the historical data that bears out this broad claim. I'd like to see a more or less representative sample of "colonization" events that "moved society forward," for example. Also, I'd like to see an accounting of the counterf…

Quite off-topic, but sometimes I even wonder if we should not "de-colonize" Earth. I first thought of that when I learnt that if all human population was living in one place with the same population density as in Tokyo, this megacity would fit in the state of California or something. That sounds extreme, but I somehow am attracted by the idea of leaving entire continents completely void of humans.

The thought experiment usually goes that the world's population could all fit into the state of Texas, at New York City density.

That always ignores the space required for agriculture, roads and transportation, waste management, power, manufacturing, and of course the natural resources that modern society depends on.

Also, I'd risk arrest or worse just to get out of that area and get some damn peace and quiet. I just spent a week in Chicago. It was fantastic. I'm really glad I'm not still there.

(And no, we shouldn't de-colonize Earth, we should get better at living in it.)

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#82

Post by Pigo »

TFortunato wrote: post #66
Pigo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like gravity is the biggest factor that the pie in the sky posts always seem to gloss over. As you said, living in the low of gravity, for the rest of your life, has to have untold issues on bodies that evolved here. It would also add another layer of complexity to everything you do. So many people act like it's just a cool destination spot for Sheldon-types. I have no doubt there'd be no shortage of people…

To play devil's advocate - there are a lot of people who would argue that the view: "Why would you do something with so many known and unknown dangers, when you could focus your energies on making a VR simulation of it instead?" also very sad.

I'm not saying we should shoot for Mars, just that until we reach the point of being able to do round-trips and step up the solutions, it sounds like an awful idea to go there. The VR is just a personal wish that I think would be great for not just Mars but all space exploration. I know that I'll never get a chance to visit the moon. But before we're able to engineer a roundtrip I could purchase, I know we'd be able to engineer a rig that could transmit a VR experience that we could all enjoy.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#83

Post by thaumaturgy »

resu_nimda wrote: post #67
theothermkn wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This strikes me as the usual motivated denial that you get from Mars enthusiasts. You're not going to "go exploring" forever. At some point, it's just more rocks. A better analogy than backpacking would be permanently living underwater at great depth. To leave your underwater habitat, you have to scuba dive or get into a submarine. You never get an unmediated experience of the outside world. Your skin touches the ins…

I'd be more impressed with Mars pessimists if they'd admit that it's just not really the kind of thing that interests them rather than insisting that it's going to be a terrible nightmare for anyone. The GP said the novelty will wear off in one hour, tops. Sorry, to some people, that's a ridiculous statement. Pointing out that it would probably last longer than that is not insisting that it's going to be one big brea…

Common among computer geeks: "I don't like this thing, and I'm perfectly rational, therefore nobody else would either."

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#84

Post by AndrewKemendo »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #57
baron816 wrote: post #24

I think there are going to be some very serious mental health issues for people trying to colonize Mars, especially if they're taking a one way trip. First, you have to deal with a different day-night cycle and the reduced gravity. That stuff matters for humans who have gotten used to 24 hour days and 9.807 m/s^2 gravity over the last 200,000 years. Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mar…

I am someone who has wanted to go to Mars for many years now. I first thought about it when I was about 8 years old -- 30 years ago. I'm still enthusiastic about it, although I doubt I'd have the skill sets or youth to participate given the current timeline. I expect Mars would be too much the opposite of boring. We'd be trying to live in an environment that, as far as we know, doesn't support any life at all. It is…

There are people who are attracted to the idea of living in a smaller community in a completely alien environment.

Stated like this, I have more empathy for such a community of Mars settlers if viewed as a lark and a kind of "oddball" enterprise, rather than what Mars colonists seem to be portrayed as now which is "SAVIORS OF HUMANITY."

The idea of having a human colony on Mars is absurd to me, and the idea that we should spend 100s of Billions on it is frustrating. However it would be interesting to see what a rag-tag group of one way explorers could do for a few $100M.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#85

Post by Chathamization »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #48
baron816 wrote: post #24

I think there are going to be some very serious mental health issues for people trying to colonize Mars, especially if they're taking a one way trip. First, you have to deal with a different day-night cycle and the reduced gravity. That stuff matters for humans who have gotten used to 24 hour days and 9.807 m/s^2 gravity over the last 200,000 years. Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mar…

> Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mars seems cool in the abstract--"explore another world!"--but its just a big, completely dead desert. I'm betting the novelty of it will wear of in an hour (tops) of landing there. Have you ever been backpacking in a desert, mountains, wilderness? It continues to be amazing for days. Anything that new and different definitely induces novelty more tha…

> Have you ever been backpacking in a desert, mountains, wilderness?

To be outdoors in the vast wilderness teaming with life, breathing fresh air, being able to wander off in any direction you feel like does have a certain amount of appeal. If you went to Mars, though, you would never be able to do this again in your life. You'd never be able to breath fresh air again. You'd never be able to stand outside on your own again - you'd only be able to do it from the inside of a constricting suit. You'd never be able to just go off and wander when you feel like - even if you could use rovers and suits for fun, you'd have to get the approval of your fellow travelers before going out. You'd never be able to see wild plants and animals again.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#86

Post by tomrod »

theothermkn wrote: post #58
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mars seems cool in the abstract--"explore another world!"--but its just a big, completely dead desert. I'm betting the novelty of it will wear of in an hour (tops) of landing there. Have you ever been backpacking in a desert, mountains, wilderness? It continues to be amazing for days. Anything that new and different definitely induces novelty more tha…

This strikes me as the usual motivated denial that you get from Mars enthusiasts. You're not going to "go exploring" forever. At some point, it's just more rocks. A better analogy than backpacking would be permanently living underwater at great depth. To leave your underwater habitat, you have to scuba dive or get into a submarine. You never get an unmediated experience of the outside world. Your skin touches the ins…

> To leave your underwater habitat, you have to scuba dive or get into a submarine. You never get an unmediated experience of the outside world. Your skin touches the inside of your suit. You smell only the air from your breathing apparatus and your own breath. Forever.

This sounds close to the neck beard trope, of people living in their parents basement and never seeing sunlight. Could we inadvertently be adapting to a Martian or Lunar environment?

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#87

Post by maxxxxx »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #76
maxxxxx wrote: post #8

I remember a talk by a NASA guy that a first try would be to land some people with limited supplies on the Antarctic and let them live autonomously for a few years. He said before we go to Mars we need the ability to do this easily.

Isn't this essentially what the Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station is doing? Albeit they're only isolated for 9 months at a time, not years, but still: 1. They have a small group of 50 people. Issues with crew psychology and relationships are mostly covered. 2. They live entirely indoors in small, manmade habitats. They're actually under the snow in much the same way that Martian hab units would be under regolith. 3.…

I wonder how well the South Pole station would do if they got a only very limited supplies to start with, had to wear pressure suits outside, couldn't afford any air leaks and didn't get supplies for several years.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#88

Post by sporkenfang »

baron816 wrote: post #24

I think there are going to be some very serious mental health issues for people trying to colonize Mars, especially if they're taking a one way trip. First, you have to deal with a different day-night cycle and the reduced gravity. That stuff matters for humans who have gotten used to 24 hour days and 9.807 m/s^2 gravity over the last 200,000 years. Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mar…

I found this (mental health issues of colonization) to be one of the most interesting parts of Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy. It drags on a bit but plenty of folks go batshit, so that lends a tinge of realism.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#89

Post by justin66 »

0xffff2 wrote: post #39
justin66 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody actually knows what an extended period living in 38% of Earth-normal gravity will do to a person. It seems probable that there will be bone density problems that might not be correctable with any existing drug or exercise regimen, but there's no evidence it will be as systematically debilitating as living for an extended period in microgravity.

Are the bone density problems actually a problem if you never plan to return to Earth?

If you don't plan to return to Earth, the whole thing could conceivably be a win. Less bone density but considerably less wear on the joints. It's anyone's guess at this point, but it'll be interesting to find out...

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#90

Post by Florin_Andrei »

baron816 wrote: post #24

I think there are going to be some very serious mental health issues for people trying to colonize Mars, especially if they're taking a one way trip. First, you have to deal with a different day-night cycle and the reduced gravity. That stuff matters for humans who have gotten used to 24 hour days and 9.807 m/s^2 gravity over the last 200,000 years. Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mar…

> a different day-night cycle

The duration is very close to Earth's. I don't think it will be an issue.

And since Mars is several light minutes away, and hence out of range for real-time dialogue, going out of sync with Earth's cycle will not be a huge issue either. You'll be talking via email anyway.

> reduced gravity

Yeah, that's a bigger issue.

> boredom and cabin fever

Could be an issue, yes. But if you're a scientist, you could work yourself to death in that new environment. So much to study, so little time.

> It'll be extremely expensive, really depressing, and probably pointless.

Climbing down from trees seemed the same at first.

Moving out of caves, into hand-built dwellings seemed the same at first.

Etc.

The point being, it's easy to overstate both the glamorous and the depressing aspects of something we are not familiar with.

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