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Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

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Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#201

Post by luckydude »

cptskippy wrote: post #200
luckydude wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make good points. I think I screwed up by not saying "for me ...." For me, I don't want a tool to be "safe" unless all my tools are safe. Working in my shop there are so many places where something can go wrong. I don't just do woodworking, I've got a metal lathe, I do a ton of mechanic stuff so things like forget to put a jackstand under the tractor and the floorjack gives out, I run chainsaws, a chipper, tracto…

There's no need to justify yourself. Mindfulness is a learned skill and removing the necessity to practice it can be a bad thing. Just today I was remarking to someone how I felt automatic headlights and other assistive technologies were allowing people to be less mindful and more inconsiderate of their surroundings and other people. I totally get where you're coming from and agree with you to an extent and I don't d…

Oh, man, google maps. Holy crap has that removed skills.

And cash registers that make change, we can't do math.

On the sawstop, I still feel that having that in my shop doesn't make my shop safe, wouldn't let my kids in there.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#202

Post by luckydude »

Rantenki wrote: post #165
luckydude wrote: post #95

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :) I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more d…

>>But why not have an even safer tablesaw? Because I don't want to get complacent around one tool and have that feeling linger when I go use the next tool. They are all dangerous and all need to be treated with respect. Unless there is a way to make them all safe (there isn't), it doesn't make sense to me to have one safe one. This argument is very irresponsible. Disclosure: I am a happy saw-stop owner who also has a…

You have your point of view, I have mine. My wife and kids don't get to use my shop without me there, it's got way too many places to go bad.

Irresponsible? Really? That seems like a crappy thing to say. How was it irresponsible?

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#203

Post by scaryspooky »

oliwarner wrote: post #188
jdavis703 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars should be made safer WRT to the people outside the car who might have to deal with the consequences. For example, a car with spikes on the outside should probably be illegal. But as long as the danger is knowingly and exclusively contained to the occupant of a vehicle I see no reason to make it illegal. Motorcycles, for example, lack standard safety features like seatbelts and airbags, and yet we haven't made th…

I guess I asked for it but I didn't really expect somebody to argue against things like airbags and SRS. Hey, what about driver seatbelts? It's a constant surprise to me just how much some people want to forgo very reliable and affordable technology to play contrarian and stick it to the man. The problem is, it's a team of paramedics, police, fire and rescue who have to scrape your broken arse off the road. You don't…

If the requirement is written in to law then the US Constitution (or other such documents granting exclusive use to an idea) must be amended to void any patent which prevents competition to meet that requirement.

Volvo[1] is the a good steward in this regard, seat belt laws cover most people but the technology itself is free to implement by anyone. That's how it should be. If you can patent something that the government then mandates be included your patents must be invalidated (or you do what Volvo did voluntarily).

[1] http://jalopnik.com/volvo-gave-away-their-most-important-inv...

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#204

Post by cptskippy »

luckydude wrote: post #201
cptskippy wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no need to justify yourself. Mindfulness is a learned skill and removing the necessity to practice it can be a bad thing. Just today I was remarking to someone how I felt automatic headlights and other assistive technologies were allowing people to be less mindful and more inconsiderate of their surroundings and other people. I totally get where you're coming from and agree with you to an extent and I don't d…

Oh, man, google maps. Holy crap has that removed skills. And cash registers that make change, we can't do math. On the sawstop, I still feel that having that in my shop doesn't make my shop safe, wouldn't let my kids in there.

I wasn't allowed in the shop as a child but I still found my way in there. We had a radial arm saw that I used quite often as a child, I'm really not sure how I survived.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#205

Post by msie »

taneq wrote: post #7
bluejekyll wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it greed exactly? Wouldn't the saws just cost more? I suppose the R&D on building the components into their current products is something they don't want to do, so maybe that's the greed aspect?

I think the greed mentioned here is that SawStop is lobbying to make it mandatory for saws to use their technology while trying to stop others from bringing similar systems to market, all so that they can price-gouge a captive market. IIRC last time it was discussed here, they were trying to charge ~$100 per saw to license their tech, when the usual margin on a saw was about a quarter of that. If they just accepted a…

Thanks, I didn't realize that. So it's greed from all sides not just the toolmakers reluctant to make their saws safer. Damn one-sided reporting.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#206

Post by oliwarner »

setr wrote: post #194
oliwarner wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I asked for it but I didn't really expect somebody to argue against things like airbags and SRS. Hey, what about driver seatbelts? It's a constant surprise to me just how much some people want to forgo very reliable and affordable technology to play contrarian and stick it to the man. The problem is, it's a team of paramedics, police, fire and rescue who have to scrape your broken arse off the road. You don't…

Its not about eliminating the technology; its about choosing its presence. These safety features are not free to have, and are not necessarily worth their cost, in every situation. But by enforcing it at the federal level you remove that choice from consumers everywhere , with at best a limited understanding of the environment in which the rule is being applied. It is not nonsensical that I might want a $400 death tr…

Doing these "worth their cost" risk assessments where n=1 leads to its own problems. Regardless of what they considered their own skill, nobody ever died in car accident, or cut their thumb off in a table saw... until they did. It's hard to be objective about your own absolute risk factors with decades of survival bias to clamber over.

And governments don't do this stuff for you, or even just the lobbyist. Injury costs the economy through lost productivity. Fatal RTAs take much longer to investigate and block critical infrastructure.

Just going back to vehicles, getting $400 death traps off the road is a good thing. These are often unsafe to other people directly (heavy, no crumple zones) and indirectly through emissions. However deferred implementation of safety features (air bags, SRS, table saw brakes, etc) means that by the time they're mandatory, you can almost always find one second hand. The "death trap" category just gets safer, not more expensive.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#207

Post by naasking »

dpcx wrote: post #109
baumandm wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this like saying you're not going to wear a seatbelt, because driving is still unsafe and you don't want to get complacent? I get what you're saying, but I would want to utilize as many safety precautions as possible, no matter what I'm doing.

Sort of, but not really. The reason you wear a seatbelt (for the most part) is because of things that are outside of your control: other drivers. In the case of woodworking, there are no other woodworkers that are going to do something stupid. And yes, I know that you also wear a seatbelt to remove potential injury from only you driving (think if you lose control, etc). You do the same in woodworking; you use clamps…

> The reason you wear a seatbelt (for the most part) is because of things that are outside of your control: other drivers

There are plenty of things outside of your control, even if only you are involved. For instance, you could suddenly have a seizure or an involuntary muscle spasm while using one of your dangerous tools. I frankly don't see any meaningful difference between the seatbelt and power tool scenarios, just a continuous risk gradient.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#208

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

luckydude wrote: post #195
analog31 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, and there are cases where I want to be protected from my own inattention, when the stakes are high enough.

So my argument is wrong but you want to be protected from inattention???? You need to be fully awake when running tools, same goes for driving. They are both defensive activities. Maybe people are beating on me because I didn't say "for me...." but whatever. I stand behind my reasoning, it works for me. And I think the sawstop is just silly. Tablesaws, used properly, are just fine. If you are losing fingers can I int…

I work 10 hours days six days a week with power tools and overhead cranes and individual steel work pieces that are guaranteed to kill or serious injury you if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Anyway safety feature that can be implemented without getting in my way, or any safety feature that forces me to work more safely is very welcome.

Just the other day someone nearly lost their fingers due to inattentiveness.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#209

Post by Doxin »

cr0sh wrote: post #177

The stupid thing is, this technology could be applied to more than just table saws; most woodshop machines are fairly dangerous if you don't keep your mind and eyes on things. The thing is, even experts can get lulled by "having done this 100 times before" - and a terrible accident happens. There are tons of power tools, shop tools, and other machinery that could be made safer. Yes, it will cost money, and consumers…

In general you really shouldn't be using dado blades. It's an easy and dangerous way to skip setting up a router and a temporary fence. There's a reason dado stacks aren't sold in europe.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#210

Post by Doxin »

emiliobumachar wrote: post #147
abfan1127 wrote: post #135

have you seen his price point? Nobody wants his tech because its crazy expensive. The brake isn't reusable, so you have to have a spare lying around so your project doesn't get delayed. I don't want it because proper safety keeps your fingers attached. Its not rocket science.

"The brake isn't reusable, so you have to have a spare lying around so your project doesn't get delayed." Is the false positive rate non-trivial? Because losing a brake and saw only when otherwise someone would lose a finger seems like a great deal, even from a detached, purely economical perspective taking into account health care and disability costs.

You really don't want to buy an expensive saw and discover that the false-positive rate is high.
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