Selection bias is the most powerful force in education • Hacker News Board

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#161

Post by bwanab » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 5:07 PM UTC

thisrod wrote: post #83

I'm amazed by the range of completion rates in that first scatter plot. Here are the Australian figures, for contrast. Note that living in the NT is strongly correlated with being Indigenous. (Indigenous Australians are the people formerly known as Aborigines.) http://www.mitchellinstitute.org.au/fact-sheets/senior-schoo...

I assume your amazement is because some states have such low rates. If so, this is very misleading since there are two competing tests in the US (ACT and SAT). The states that have low rates for SAT almost all have very high rates for ACT and vice-versa.

In fact, looking at the chart you can see that it is a split distribution.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#162

Post by sololipsist » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 5:27 PM UTC

throwaway613834 wrote: post #36

sololipsist wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sending a troubled kid to a great private school probably will cause the kid to do better ... However selection bias already does this Funny thing, though. We've done a bunch of studies on this and it doesn't actually help. The people who care about their kids more getting them into better schools, yes - but placing the kids of parents who don't care into better schools, no. This has been shown time and time again.…

> Funny thing, though. We've done a bunch of studies on this and it doesn't actually help. > This has been shown time and time again. One would think a link to at least one study would be appropriate here?

Eh, not really. I've learned over the years to avoid providing sources because more often than not the person won't believe you either way and will only use the source as a tangible target for disingenuous attack through motivated misinterpretation. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning)

I typically provide sources in response to replies like: "That's interesting, but I can't really find anything on the matter; can you point me to something?" But if there is no indication that the person actually tried to find corroboration independently I take it as a sign that he is not actually interested in corroboration. I'm sure this is inaccurate sometimes, but it's the best approximation I can come up with.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#163

Post by novaleaf » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 6:35 PM UTC

cefstat wrote: post #127

novaleaf wrote: post #125

The article's hypothetical gubernatorial scenario is a big turn off. It states that Mississippi has higher SAT scores than Connecticut so Connecticut's Teacher Unions are bad. As the article doesn't at all remark on the suspicious causality of that, it makes me more skeptical of the rest of the article.

That’s not at all what the article claims. It presents a hypothetical scenario, based on real SAT average scores, where somebody can reach a very wrong conclusion (teacher unions are bad) based on this data. Then the article proceeds to explain how the difference in the average scores can be attributed to self-selection among students who take the SAT rather than unions. So, the article not only remarks on the suspic…

I understand what you are saying, but really don't think that suspicious causality is what the article is about at all. It's about selection bias. (not the same as causality)

Indeed after reading the article I feel it is generally well written and compelling. However the contrived teacher union scenario is a big distraction for me as I was reading the article hoping that issue would be addressed and it wasn't. It would have been much stronger without this gaping logic hole introduced in the beginning.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#164

Post by jstewartmobile » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 8:37 PM UTC

gnaritas wrote: post #78

banach wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary. The less you have, the more you stand to benefit from appreciating other things than possessions.

No one said anything about possessions, you're projecting. We're talking about survival here, not consumerism.

That's probably a little over-dramatic. In the west, survival is a pretty low bar.

That, and "human development" in terms of an actual broad education will probably get you further in the long run than circling up around the latest job credential.

I remember reading somewhere about how learning certain instruments makes changes to the brain's surface that are large enough to see with the naked eye. From many accounts, playing the violin was no small part of Einstein's life and research. Who knows if he'd have been as productive if he'd just been all-physics-all-the-time? It could have served as a sort of "backpropagation" to his theoretical work.

From my own experience, many of these seemingly unrelated intellectual pursuits open so many doors, and from this article it isn't just my own experience: https://medium.com/personal-growth/einsteins-violin-the-hidd...

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#165

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 9:29 PM UTC

gmarx wrote: post #157

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Integrated schools help to reduce racial achievement gaps. In fact, the racial achievement gap in K–12 education closed more rapidly during the peak years of school desegregation in the 1970s and 1980s than it has overall in the decades that followed—when many desegregation policies were dismantled. More recently, black and Latino students had smaller achievement gaps with white students on the 2007 and 2009 NAEP whe…

Sorry for the late response. I haven't gone to the links yet but the quotes in italics give me pause. They seem to be at pains to state things in a way which looks like it means one thing but may mean another. The second sentence is a nice start to an investigation but is not evidence really, just a temporal association. The third sentence is about poverty, not integration. The fact that the gap is larger in segregat…

I guess if I were to boil it down it'd come to this. If integration doesn't help minority students then you have to believe in seperate but equal. If you don't believe that our schools are seperate but equal then you should be in favor of integration so that everybody has ownership in the problems our schools and children face.

But I mean let's be honest here, are you really going to accept that integration worked? I'd like to believe it but experience tells me probably not. Because of the backfire effect I don't think you're likely to be convinced by some guy on the internet quoting social science research (especially since no research is perfect.) So here, let me give you a more human element. Here's three This American Life episodes, the first two are explicitly about integration and the third is about kids from a poor, public school visiting a rich, private school which is slightly less topical but helps to get the point across I think. Just listen and consider please.

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/...

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/563/...

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/550/...

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#166

Post by oldandtired » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 12:28 AM UTC

glangdale wrote: post #85

oldandtired wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, let me ask you a question - Are you a teacher in any Australian school? Secondly, you have just pontificated on schooling in Australia - so, my second question is, if an article came out with different conclusions (with which you disagreed) would you be amenable to being force to read it as you are in the class of people who pontificates on schooling in Australia. There are good private schools and there are g…

Your remarks seem like a collection of things you'd like to say, a bit of abuse ("pontificated", reiterates the guy who replied to my 5-liner with a rambling mini-essay about a large array of random education issues not connected to my post), and an appeal to authority (I'm not a teacher -so what?) I am not proposing the private schools shut down. I would like to see them funded less (and suspect that we would contin…

I am not appealing to "authority" but to experience. How much do you know about the working of either private or public schools. Public schools are not free - parents pay all sorts of "education" fees, been there done that. Similarly in the private schools system, there are possibilities of getting financial help for school fees if you me certain criteria, been there done that.

A discussion also includes sharing of "random" stuff since this is generally experience and gives some input into various matters.

In regards to your very last comment about kicking out their problems is a feature of both public and private schools. Both can do it and both do do it.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#167

Post by tyrw » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 2:33 AM UTC

mmmpop wrote: post #160

tyrw wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is offensive about this? The fact that someone on HN went to Harvard?

Envy I'd guess? There are probably a lot of reasons that some people resent Ivy League grads, probably the whole "legacy" model. I get that, but I know plenty that were just talented and worked very hard to be there. Haters gonna hate!

Just an odd take to me. HN was started by a Harvard alum based on experiences in the Harvard Computer Society, so this should be the last place that's an issue...

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#168

Post by banach » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 2:58 AM UTC

bpodgursky wrote: post #70

banach wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary. The less you have, the more you stand to benefit from appreciating other things than possessions.

Yes, I'm sure a generation trying to save for a house under burden of student loans appreciates your sage bullshit advice. Must really appreciate the lack of affordable health care and never being able to afford a family. But at least you can appreciate it!

Philosophies of life like Buddhism and Stoicism came about in times that were much less comfy than even the sad reality we have to endure. I am not saying people shouldn't demand things of society (quite the opposite, I think the level of organizing among the poor is the root of many of the issues we are seeing today), but I am saying that they can benefit from separating their happiness from the fulfillment of those demands.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#169

Post by rikkus » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 8:48 AM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #112

oldandtired wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been a student with good and bad teachers, I can see your point. However, many of the things that you are being taught (at least I hope this is still the case) that don't appear to be needed for the "job" are actually important because they are needed for the understanding of the background for why and how the "job". The failure of teachers that we faced as students was that the reasons for learning something…

Theoretical knowledge is absolutely extremely useful, but the way we teach it is pretty much a non-starter. We need to humanize our education systems. The concept that we all sit around in school for 20+ years and then go out and find something to do with all of that knowledge is based more on maintaining rigid financial/power structures than it is based on effective information discovery and utilization, and there's…

It's also childcare for working parents. I know it's not supposed to be but it's a side effect that's widely taken for granted.

I believe you're correct about young people being turned into debt slaves. The rich and rich-aspirational in the UK are encouraging/implementing this here as quickly as they are able.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#170

Post by DanBC » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 10:47 AM UTC

graycat wrote: post #148

yorwba wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are rambling. I do not mean that as an insult, just as an observation that might help your writing. Maybe you could do it like (1) Get a book on writing. (2) Read the book. (3) Do the exercises. Seems to work for you. However, the way you learn best doesn't have to be the way that is best for everyone else. See, when I took calculus in high school, I (1) Got the book. (2) Flipped through it in an afternoon. (3) D…

My writing was fine! It was effective! My first post on that topic was too short. My "rambling" -- actually it was well enough organized -- worked because you understood it just fine. As I mentioned, to solve some of the exercises I gave, will need the college material. That one about a convex polytope is an example. It turns out, that is not an easy exercise. In particular, surprisingly, it does not yield to the usu…

> My writing was fine!

Your posts are too long. This is one of the reasons you're getting downvotes.