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Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

fredrikdeboer.com

61–70 of 185 posts

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#61

This is a good article. I wish I could force everyone who pontificates on schooling in Australia to read it. We have an enormous private school system (part govt-funded, which is gross) that can get rid of students as they please. Then they go on to verbally dump shit on the public system, where they get to dump their problem students. Nice. We also have a real fetish for selective schools, which are essentially sele…

First, let me ask you a question - Are you a teacher in any Australian school?

Secondly, you have just pontificated on schooling in Australia - so, my second question is, if an article came out with different conclusions (with which you disagreed) would you be amenable to being force to read it as you are in the class of people who pontificates on schooling in Australia.

There are good private schools and there are good public schools. There are bad private schools and there are bad public schools. What makes them good or bad is a function of the school administration, teachers and families involved in those schools.

All are interrelated and how they handle "problem" students is very dependent on the three groups. I have seen both private and public schools that do not handle such matters well and the result is that everything (in time) goes to hell in a handcart.

But I have also seen schools completely turned around by a change of administration, change of teachers and a more involved family community. This has affected both public and private schools.

You negativity toward private schools (comment about partial government funding) doesn't seem to recognise that if private schools closed down the public school system would be so overwhelmed that it would no longer have any hope of coping.

My own children have been at both public and private schools. I have even been on the school committee for the public school so I got a direct management insight into the operation of the school and the processes required for dealing with "problem" children. At times, it was more problems with parents than children, at other times it was problems in the families which could be mitigated by giving them appropriate help and at other times it was just related to recalcitrant and stubborn children that their own families had difficulty with and the families were supporting the school actions in relation to their children and finally there were problems with the teachers themselves and their interactions with specific children.

If there is no cooperation between schools and the families involved in wanting to develop the children to be their best, then failures will increasingly occur.

Your comment about selective schools misses one salient point, children are not all the same. In Victoria, we used to have trade oriented schools, which were done away with. We now have little opportunity to have students who are interested in practical fields to be specifically educated in those areas. The education model is to have all students head for higher education and big debts.

I have a grandson who is autistic and is being educated in the private school sector where there is facilities for him to progress. The local public schools don't have those facilities and hence he would be on the scrapheap. However, there are public schools around who only take the "best" students and pride themselves on having great education standards. If you don't qualify, you'll have problems getting in.

What the solutions are is contentious and many just blame one sector or another for the problems (private/public) without thinking about the broader community aspects and the benefit to students. Teaching is not a highly regarded profession and that in itself brings about structural problems of all sorts. We then have various political interferences that want to control the specific social education across all schools, irrespective of any school community feedback.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#62
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes quite; for example, kids who are in the 95th percentile of height at 9th grade might be only in the 60th percentile of height at 12th grade.

The example wasn't about height percentiles, which can change. it was about raw height. If his example had been about percentiles, then it wouldn't have been such a stark no-brainer. Because a high school that admits only taller students would be mostly girls, and by 12th grade they would be shorter than many/most boys. I was taking issue with the example as given. If it were framed the way you suggested, it would no…

It is assumed that schools bragging about how tall their students are are not doing so in a vacuum, and that they aren't bragging that their 12th graders are taller than the other school's 9th graders, no?

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#63

Parents, teachers, and students are so focused on "education" as a pedigree and job pipeline that if they don't see an immediate connection between a topic and a paycheck they're like "Who cares?! Why are you wasting my kid's time on that?" When the whole thing is an exercise in competitive pedigreeing, of course it's going to be gamed. If it were more about human development, we'd be focusing on the deltas instead,…

They're not wrong to worry about that, it's a rough world out there and getting a good job is vastly more important to most people than "human development". Parents don't send their kids to college to become better people, they do it to make sure they have a skill that can lead to a career so they can survive on their own. Only the rich have the luxury of being concerned about something other than a job.

some people get to work in a creative job (I think being successful in STEM is more creative than people generally account for). in which case all that human development is pretty important.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#64

Parents, teachers, and students are so focused on "education" as a pedigree and job pipeline that if they don't see an immediate connection between a topic and a paycheck they're like "Who cares?! Why are you wasting my kid's time on that?" When the whole thing is an exercise in competitive pedigreeing, of course it's going to be gamed. If it were more about human development, we'd be focusing on the deltas instead,…

They're not wrong to worry about that, it's a rough world out there and getting a good job is vastly more important to most people than "human development". Parents don't send their kids to college to become better people, they do it to make sure they have a skill that can lead to a career so they can survive on their own. Only the rich have the luxury of being concerned about something other than a job.

They are wrong to worry about that. The world is dynamic, and human development, the way I interpret it, will help the students deal with the world they go out to.

Better people will deal with what comes their way. Maybe today it's a job, but tomorrow it'll be something else.

Students who were only thought how to build software, will have a hard time dealing with life when robots starts building software instead of them.

First have better people, then let better people be better and bring themselves to prosperity.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#65

Parents, teachers, and students are so focused on "education" as a pedigree and job pipeline that if they don't see an immediate connection between a topic and a paycheck they're like "Who cares?! Why are you wasting my kid's time on that?" When the whole thing is an exercise in competitive pedigreeing, of course it's going to be gamed. If it were more about human development, we'd be focusing on the deltas instead,…

They're not wrong to worry about that, it's a rough world out there and getting a good job is vastly more important to most people than "human development". Parents don't send their kids to college to become better people, they do it to make sure they have a skill that can lead to a career so they can survive on their own. Only the rich have the luxury of being concerned about something other than a job.

On the contrary. The less you have, the more you stand to benefit from appreciating other things than possessions.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#66

This is a good article. I wish I could force everyone who pontificates on schooling in Australia to read it. We have an enormous private school system (part govt-funded, which is gross) that can get rid of students as they please. Then they go on to verbally dump shit on the public system, where they get to dump their problem students. Nice. We also have a real fetish for selective schools, which are essentially sele…

First, let me ask you a question - Are you a teacher in any Australian school? Secondly, you have just pontificated on schooling in Australia - so, my second question is, if an article came out with different conclusions (with which you disagreed) would you be amenable to being force to read it as you are in the class of people who pontificates on schooling in Australia. There are good private schools and there are g…

I don’t think it’s negative to private schools to say the statistics reflect selection bias rather than apples-to-apples comparisons. I generally take people saying ‘I wish I could force people to read X’ as ‘I’m frustrated I always have to deal with people who don’t understand important concept from X’ and not ‘I actually want to hold a gun to someone’s head until they finish reading this.’ I agree on good and bad public and private schools, but I think the key point is that they aren’t the order of the schools ranking on some standardized test or statistical measure.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#67
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The private school system in Australia saves the government money. Per student funding in the private system is lower than per student funding in the public system. This money is then available to spend more on government schools. It also keeps the government system honest because people can and do leave schools that don't work such as many of those in poor areas in the outer suburbs of the big cities and regional ar…

> The private school system in Australia saves the government money. Per student funding in the private system is lower than per student funding in the public system. This money is then available to spend more on government schools. Isn't this selection bias again? More difficult (expensive) students may get shunted into the public system.

A number of private schools roughly kick out people in the bottom 10-20% of results. They aren't necessarily that more expensive to teach, the private schools just don't want them.

The really expensive kids (say 20K+ per year) are those that are seriously disabled and they almost all go into the government system. But, if the government only has to pay ~1/3 of the cost of about 1/3 of students who are in the private system there is more money available for them.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#69
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not wrong to worry about that, it's a rough world out there and getting a good job is vastly more important to most people than "human development". Parents don't send their kids to college to become better people, they do it to make sure they have a skill that can lead to a career so they can survive on their own. Only the rich have the luxury of being concerned about something other than a job.

On the contrary. The less you have, the more you stand to benefit from appreciating other things than possessions.

That can be obtained in a much more cost effective manner.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#70
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not wrong to worry about that, it's a rough world out there and getting a good job is vastly more important to most people than "human development". Parents don't send their kids to college to become better people, they do it to make sure they have a skill that can lead to a career so they can survive on their own. Only the rich have the luxury of being concerned about something other than a job.

On the contrary. The less you have, the more you stand to benefit from appreciating other things than possessions.

Yes, I'm sure a generation trying to save for a house under burden of student loans appreciates your sage bullshit advice.

Must really appreciate the lack of affordable health care and never being able to afford a family. But at least you can appreciate it!

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