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Facebook – You are the Product

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Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#171

Post by njarboe »

rditooait wrote: post #42
olympus wrote: post #31

I'm here to fix some ignorance, since the source of the "you are the product" idea is not these books. Metafilter user blue_beetle first put this idea online when he said "If you are not paying for it, you're not the customer; you're the product being sold" in response to the Digg revolt of 2010. The idea apparently existed for a few decades prior regarding TV advertising. I prefer to think blue_beetle was the one wh…

Sorry - I want to make clear that the point of sharing this article on HN is not to give credit to who came up with this concept. I simply want to start (or continue) discourse on this particular subject. To be honest, this isn't even just about Facebook, I'm sure you could have the same argument about the majority of today's tech companies who are commoditizing information about users and using that to monetize. Gen…

A universal system of micro-payments could help change the system or at least provide support to alternative systems. I want to pay for things I use to support the creator and to signal that it is valuable. Unfortunately, all the efforts in creating micro-payments have failed (in the US?). Seems to me this is a place where the controller of the local currency (in the US, the Fed/Federal government) should set up a system. It would only take one nation with a floating exchange rate to set up a working micro-payment system and it could become the defacto global online currency. Many nations would quickly follow. Come on Canada, do this.

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#173

Post by ma2rten »

adrianlmm wrote: post #44
adrianlmm wrote: post #20

I've been using Facebook for years, awesome tool, I'm in contact with friends, relatives and parters, it is awesome.

Why the mod downs? It makes you angry that I find Facebook useful?

I think it's because the downvoters feel like it doesn't add anything to the discussion, because you don't really address the concerns in the article.

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#174

Post by zamber »

rditooait wrote: post #42
olympus wrote: post #31

I'm here to fix some ignorance, since the source of the "you are the product" idea is not these books. Metafilter user blue_beetle first put this idea online when he said "If you are not paying for it, you're not the customer; you're the product being sold" in response to the Digg revolt of 2010. The idea apparently existed for a few decades prior regarding TV advertising. I prefer to think blue_beetle was the one wh…

Sorry - I want to make clear that the point of sharing this article on HN is not to give credit to who came up with this concept. I simply want to start (or continue) discourse on this particular subject. To be honest, this isn't even just about Facebook, I'm sure you could have the same argument about the majority of today's tech companies who are commoditizing information about users and using that to monetize. Gen…

In essence that's a concept worth spreading. For example see how the Google memo debacle, or how Trumps president run news were formed to fit the particular outlets readership for maximum rage-views and/or confirmation sympathy.

As for combating this - there are no golden bullets. Even Google's search starts to lean towards sources that a given user visits more oft... or actually my search patterns fit to a given scheme that's abused by media outlets in their SEO.

I've had an idea for aggregating time-ordered news headlines for analysis to get a broad comparison of author and company leanings. This could be then shaped to a browser extension informing the user about that. The problem is that then it would be accused of labeling stuff with broad strokes.

(This mainly comes from me not remembering which news site likes which politicians and social issues.)

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#175

Post by komali2 »

tdurden wrote: post #102
compiler-guy wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a painfully simplistic response. No matter what I do, several activities and groups I want to be a part of are only advertised and organized on facebook. It's not within my power to change that. And that, in fact, _does_ makes it hard to avoid using facebook without being left out.

> And that, in fact, _does_ makes it hard to avoid using facebook without being left out. I think you might mean _fear_ of being left out...friends will find other ways to contact you.

I don't think this is true. We always have that moment at parties, "Where's Kyle? Oh shit, he deleted his facebook and didn't see the invite, did anybody text him to tell him?!" No, we didn't, because 99% of our friends use the very useful party organizing app with integrated chat and picture sharing, Facebook.

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#176

Post by insulanus »

mseebach wrote: post #153
lloydde wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a pithy saying that gets across that you as the user and the proprietor's interests may not align. We are manipulated with low doses of pleasure, nostalgia, etc. This often involves some level of deception. Sophisticated psychology is used in advertisers. When you pay with money the incentives and transactions are more clear. I'm most aware of this through my children's interactions with entertainment where YouT…

Yeah, but it's mostly wrong, and it's a sophomoric commercephobic understanding of business (also, it's an arrogant and misanthropic view of Facebooks two billion actual users as ignorant victims of something that sounds almost like a scam). The exact same argument can be made for supermarkets: they are conduits for putting you in front of goods from suppliers (supermarkets invest a lot more in their relationship wit…

It's really great that you present the example of supermarkets. You mention that the group that holds the most power over the supermarkets are the suppliers, not the consumers - a counterpoint to the Facebook situation.

An extreme difference in the situation is that what is being sold by the supermarket is a physical commodity, and in the Facebook case, what is being sold is highly personalized data, the understanding of which could be used to affect the Facebook user far into the future.

Buying lettuce from a store does not bind you as tightly to the store.

What is the same in both cases, is that the larger, more organized entity with more money is being catered to, and the needs of the mass of consumers is being given less weight.

That seems like a natural outcome of how the incentives are set up - the corporations have more at stake, and have more veto power per organization. Therefore, they are going to bargain harder, at a higher level.

One way that you cannot compare the two ("If it does not fundamentally provide some value ..."), is that I can go to any supermarket to get curry ingredients. I may only be able to go to see what a particular person has to say, for example my mom, or the hot person I just met.

A great example. Thank you.

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#177

Post by [deleted] »

parthdesai wrote: post #49
notadoc wrote: post #5

I stopped using Facebook years ago and I could not recommend it more. I found it to be mental pollution at best and and a total waste of time. If you want to 'keep in touch' with people, call or text them. Make an effort to actually interact with the people who matter to you.

So tell me, how do i replace around 5 different group chats i have on messenger which can have anywhere between 5-10 people in each chat? Music events that i go to are exclusively promoted on facebook. How do you recommend i find out about these events so that i can get a cheaper ticket price? if anyone wants to organize a plan that has more than 8 people, facebook groups make it much much easier. I personally hate f…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#178

Post by lkozma »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #134
debaserab2 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but get real. People use technology because it assists and speeds up areas of their life. For many people, facebook far and away is the most convenient way to manage their social life simply because they have the greatest adoption within their social groups. Yes, we could "write someone a letter in the mail instead" or "ask a friend about the events on facebook" but that would defeat the point for the vast…

The point I'm making is thus: if you acknowledge that Facebook is a bad influence on your life but you feel stuck with it, here's a low risk strategy for dipping your toes into life without it that you can try out. I don't spend hours managing my social contacts and calendars and I still feel connected with my family and my friends without Facebook. I'd like to point out that this thread has depressingly similar patt…

Yes, your last point seems quite accurate -- smokers often complain that they would like to stop smoking, but don't want to miss out on the social connections it entails.

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#179

Post by komali2 »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #134
debaserab2 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but get real. People use technology because it assists and speeds up areas of their life. For many people, facebook far and away is the most convenient way to manage their social life simply because they have the greatest adoption within their social groups. Yes, we could "write someone a letter in the mail instead" or "ask a friend about the events on facebook" but that would defeat the point for the vast…

The point I'm making is thus: if you acknowledge that Facebook is a bad influence on your life but you feel stuck with it, here's a low risk strategy for dipping your toes into life without it that you can try out. I don't spend hours managing my social contacts and calendars and I still feel connected with my family and my friends without Facebook. I'd like to point out that this thread has depressingly similar patt…

>I'd like to point out that this thread has depressingly similar patterns compared to talking with drug addicts about their habit.

I feel like if I applied the logic you're using here for that, I could say the same thing about buying food in a store.

"It is legal to hunt. There's nothing stopping you from going into the woods, killing a deer, and salting its meat other than your own dependency on the conveniences of the modern era."

I mean, at some point, we have to accept that the world is becoming a lot easier to live in.

I'm curious what era you grew up in - were you around when literally the only way to get a hold of someone was hope they're home for a phone call? It sucked. I genuinely believe people that disagree are wearing rose-tinted nostalgia glasses. Back then, my only friends could be the ones that went to my highschool, or lived in my neighborhood. In a city like Houston, that's quite the restriction - my sister can have friends from all over the city, as far as Pasadena or even Sugarland! Impossible when I was a kid.

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#180

Post by dalanmiller »

parthdesai wrote: post #49
notadoc wrote: post #5

I stopped using Facebook years ago and I could not recommend it more. I found it to be mental pollution at best and and a total waste of time. If you want to 'keep in touch' with people, call or text them. Make an effort to actually interact with the people who matter to you.

So tell me, how do i replace around 5 different group chats i have on messenger which can have anywhere between 5-10 people in each chat? Music events that i go to are exclusively promoted on facebook. How do you recommend i find out about these events so that i can get a cheaper ticket price? if anyone wants to organize a plan that has more than 8 people, facebook groups make it much much easier. I personally hate f…

The Facebook API is pretty easy to use. I'd recommend writing some scripts and then PushBullet'ing them to you as necessary. The goal is to prevent yourself as much as you can from opening facebook.com.
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