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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#971
post #957

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is a debate worse than a discussion? Debate works really well in two situations: 1. All parties are experienced with debates and enjoy debates. In particular, they can partake in a debate and then, afterward, dispassionately evaluate the arc of the debate; OR 2. The setting is inherently adversarial and there is a third party who will ultimately decide the outcome. Almost all workplace conversations -- and inde…

You are actually trying to stifle debate on a topic you think is so self evident that it does not need any... and you are doing it by debating.

I'd say that this conversation fits under the first criteria I listed for circumstances where debate makes sense. Do you disagree?

If you read my post, it's immediately apparent -- from the very first sentence!!! -- that I am not stating that debate is always worse than discussion. I'm providing a list of reasons why debate is often not preferable to discussion, and particularly in workplaces (e.g., bullet point 4).

So I'm not trying to stifle this debate at all. In fact, exactly the opposite. I explicitly identified one class of circumstances -- which encapsulates this thread -- where debate actually works very well.

Rather, I'm explaining why debate is an objectively bad communication mechanism in many circumstances, and particularly in typical work places.

> stifle debate

Return to your original comment.

WHY is stifling debate bad? Basically, because debate forces us to substantiate our beliefs+. Why is substantiating our beliefs good? Presumably because we're interested in truth. So debate is not some inherent good; it's a useful and indeed sometimes indispensable tool for finding truth.

But I've claimed (points 1-4) that debate, in some circumstances, actually actively harms our search for truth. Again, not all circumstances, but some.

So it's very unclear to me why you would claim that stifling debate is a bad thing without responding to my four critiques of debate as a mechanism for finding truth.

Is having debates more important than finding truth? Is robust debate more important than getting things done? ++

> you think is so self evident that it does not need any

Oh cool, now I get to yell at you about dubious unwarranted claims ;-)

--

+ It's possible to have non-argumentative discussions in which everyone is forced to substantiate their claims; this is about good communication and critical thinking, not debate vs. discussion. Backing off from a combative tone is only equivalent to "stifling" when your communication skills are sub-par.

++ Finally, on a personal note, this realization that debate is often counter-productive was a huge turning point in my career and in my personal life. Identifying when debates are and are not appropriate is an important professional and life skill. E.g., I never, ever start a debate when I'm trying to convince someone to change a workplace policy. It's totally and completely unsurprising to me that doing so backfired in a big way, because the same thing has happened to me.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#972
post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

I think one thing that struck me from the linked article was the point that the memo wasn't structured to invite discussion. It wasn't "let's have a chat", it was "here's an evidence bomb of how you're all wrong". I think advancing points is fine, but if you're after productive discussion rather than an adversarial debate, you need to proactively invite discussion. And if an adversarial debate was what he was after,…

One thing I find problematic about the memo is that it conflate three issues: Google's diversity programs, Google's echo chamber, and the left/right politics.

If you want to talk about diversity programs, the other two appear to be attempts to shut down further discussion. If you want to talk about the problem of living in an echo chamber, diversity is, or ought to be, an example, not the focus. If you want to talk politics at work, don't.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#974
post #856

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). This was addressed in the article. This burden has fallen on w…

> This burden has fallen on women since they were teenagers. To expect them to do it yet again, to have to defend themselves at work this time, is ridiculous. See "Self made man" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Made_Man_(book) , for a real-life experience of living as a man vs as a woman. Her conclusion at the end was that women have it much, much, easier, and she would much rather live as a woman than as a man. i…

IIRC at the end of those 18 months Norah Vincent had to check herself into a psychiatric hospital because of the severe depression she developed.

Besides saying that men don't really have it better[1] she also commented[2] "When you mess around with that, you really mess around with something that you need that helps you to function. And I found out that gender lives in your brain and is something much more than costume. And I really learned that the hard way," which is less "women have it much, much easier" and more "women, living as women have it much, much easier".

[1]: gender stereotypes hurt everyone, and in [2] she spoke about how "They don't get to show the weakness, they don't get to show the affection, especially with each other. And so often all their emotions are shown in rage"; but they can't be discounted because of this. [2]: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Entertainment/story?id=1526982

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#975
post #935

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose this is the one point I always find myself pondering when these women in tech arguments arise, why is there no push to for women in the oil-manufacturing industry? How many women do we have working on oil rigs? It's a very well paying job with a lot of opportunity for people with less than stellar backgrounds, but trying to get their life on track. There are lots of jobs out there that are close to 100% mal…

I'm sure there's similar movements in other industries, and I'm sure there's someone in their forums saying something similar.

Maybe you have a point, I should look into this and see if there are forums where women are trying to push into this field. I have family that works on off-shore rigs, and I've never heard a peep about it. But that is anecdotal.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#976
post #935
post #242

A common criticism by each four of the female engineers is how the memo effected them in their job and how they had to prove themselves afterward. This strongly reminds me of about a case a year ago when a kindergarten teacher was tried and charged for rape against several children. After a lot of media attention, many male teachers all over the nation reported to constantly having prove to parents and fellow female…

I suppose this is the one point I always find myself pondering when these women in tech arguments arise, why is there no push to for women in the oil-manufacturing industry? How many women do we have working on oil rigs? It's a very well paying job with a lot of opportunity for people with less than stellar backgrounds, but trying to get their life on track. There are lots of jobs out there that are close to 100% mal…

It's a very well paying job with a lot of opportunity

Dangerous tho'. By the way, apropos of nothing, 95% of workplace deaths are men.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#977

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there's similar movements in other industries, and I'm sure there's someone in their forums saying something similar.

Any proof of that ? Of course I only have a myopic point of view of the software industry but I don't hear the same noise from other industries

Not that myopic; gender in tech is front page news in the mainstream press. Not so much about any other industry.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#978

As a longtime female engineer at fintech startups, there was absolutely nothing new in Damore's memo. The only thing that gave these tired arguments any cachet at all was Google's name. And I really wish Google hadn't fired Damore. Special projects exists?! For years I have worked with and continue to work with guys who think just like this. In fact, thanks to Twitter, I now know all of my followers who also follow D…

When I give feedback on something important in the technology, I have to repeat myself, repeat myself, wait a week while you "think about it," and then finally have a male co-worker go over it with you so you can, in a 5 minutes' conversation, decide you agree ...

Thanks for posting this.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#979

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a disingenuous take to me. I don't think you can honestly say publishing it to 10's of thousands of readers constitutes editorial consultation and advice. Editing and review consists of find a small (one handful) number of trusted friends and mentors whose insight you value, having them read it and make suggestions and comments, perhaps multiple cycles, and only then publish to people you don't know…

As I understand it Damore did seek out feedback from smaller groups of people before releasing it company wide but even if he didn't, who cares? It's very common to publish documents to the entire world asking for review. That's what the RFC processed for digital standards is, that's what arXiv does for academics. You are the one being disingenuous with this inane critique of the specifics of how Damore sought out fe…

> As I understand it Damore did seek out feedback from smaller groups of people

Not in the least the same thing as seeking editorial comment from a set of volunteers who know what they're reading. But I can see you are insistent that he did in fact do something he didn't do, which is the definition of disingenuousness.

I wish you good fortune in your future HR counseling sessions.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#980
post #885
post #853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's false and nasty. You've made up so many groundless insinuations against us over so many years that at some point I'm just going to give up and ban you; I don't think it's reasonable to expect patience with false accusations to be infinite. In the meantime, here are three comments that explain how moderators had nothing to do with this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15023538 https://news.ycombinator.com/…

I don't think it's false and nasty. I was thinking the same thing ... quite objectively. There were at least two discussions that I thought were very reasonable, and they got flagged into oblivion very quickly. So I don't know why the YC link gets to be the exception. It feels wrong. Maybe it is due to the users, but if that is so, it feels wrong enough to give me a pretty big loss of faith in the dynamics of the com…

Re-reading my comment I realize that the context was obviously missing, so here's some context.

The issue isn't that you or other users had that perception; that's natural, which is why I've posted half a dozen explanations of what actually happened, i.e. moderators didn't touch the post (other than in one routine way I described) and its prominence on the front page was because user upvotes dramatically outweighed flags. It was purely a community response.

The reason I used the word 'nasty' is because this user has a long history of insinuating that we're lying (("it's the algorithm", "it's the user", blabla)), when they have more reason than any other HN user to know we don't do that. I've spent hours personally, patiently explaining this to him over at least a dozen occasions where he has made stuff like this up (most often, accusing us of moderating HN to be shills for Microsoft, which is silly). Good faith doesn't act this way.

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