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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#791

Post by foobar_femme »

As a longtime female engineer at fintech startups, there was absolutely nothing new in Damore's memo. The only thing that gave these tired arguments any cachet at all was Google's name.

And I really wish Google hadn't fired Damore. Special projects exists?!

For years I have worked with and continue to work with guys who think just like this. In fact, thanks to Twitter, I now know all of my followers who also follow Damore. Thanks for that?

When I interview you and ask you a technical question, you don't meet my eyes and then you answer the guy sitting next to me. When I present my own ideas in a group, you ignore them; fine, I'll pregame males colleages and let them present my ideas instead. If I brainstorm as part of the group, you think I'm asking you to explain basic programming concepts to me. You probably think I'm not that smart. And that's OK. Good news: getting things done requires multiple skills. One of mine is overtaking you from behind.

Nobody ever thinks of promoting me first. Whatever I get, I work twice as hard and twice as long for it as you did. The existence of a female networking group does not represent an unfair advantage: it represents barely any advantage at all, on the basis of the ones I've attended. And anyway, I don't have time for that, I'm trying to figure out what's caused the unexplained performance reversion over the past two days.

Whether you think I am a diversity candidate or not, I am here to code. That is all. Statistically speaking, biology does give me one edge: longer life span. I'll imagine I will still be here doing just that long after everyone else has forgot James Damore exists. ;)

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#792

Post by NiceGuy_Ty »

droopybuns wrote: post #720
corndoge wrote: post #625

Frances: ...if I remain silent, that silence could be mistaken for agreement. I should not be forced into that kind of debate at work. And then Frances: ...I’m also disappointed that the men I know, including most of my male colleagues, remained silent on the topic. Frances: ...Many powerful men in Silicon Valley have huge bases of social media followers. By remaining silent on this topic or tweeting support for Damo…

This section struck out to me too. what I realized is that I am older, more world wary and far more cynical about anyone looking out for me than your average young millennial. I think the dividing line is in that cynicism. I have never felt like anyone looked out for me. "How do I prove myself to people one way or another?" I have stopped trying to prove myself. I do what I think is right and am very wary of external…

> Stop talking about white men like we've never experienced pain.

What kind of discourse are you referring to? I hate that there's this notion that trying to hire talented people from underrepresented communities somehow requires oppressing white people.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#793

Post by micahbright »

studentrob wrote: post #682
dreta wrote: post #151

All i got from the memo, besides the echo chamber part, which google, and others managed to prove almost immediately, was that the author thinks there are biological differences between men and women, which lead to women being less interested in the field, thus being under-represented, and that google's sexist practices won't change that, only make people resent the diversity hires. Was i reading the wrong memo? Beca…

> the author said women are less suited to being good engineers... Where was that stated? DAMORE: "I'm simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership." EDIT: also https://youtu.be/TN1vEfqHGro?t=30m13s

Fact: women and men have varying distributions in abilities and traits - due to biology

Fact: women and men aren't distributed equally in tech and leadership.

And your conclusion is that anyone who presents these facts and says that maybe one causes the other means that women are "less suited" for engineering?

There is no logical basis for this. He didn't say what you are attributing to him.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#794

Post by Aeolun »

rayiner wrote: post #481
hedgew wrote: post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

> I do not think that anyone's ability to write should disbar them from discussion. We can not expect perfection from others. Instead we should try to understand them as human beings, and interpret them with generosity and kindness. I'm a huge proponent of the principle of charity, but I found it impossible to apply to the Google Memo. Not because I'm deeply mired in political correctness (I have a range of views peo…

So he was wrong. That doesn't make him the devil in disguise.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#795

Post by abvdasker »

foobar_femme wrote: post #791

As a longtime female engineer at fintech startups, there was absolutely nothing new in Damore's memo. The only thing that gave these tired arguments any cachet at all was Google's name. And I really wish Google hadn't fired Damore. Special projects exists?! For years I have worked with and continue to work with guys who think just like this. In fact, thanks to Twitter, I now know all of my followers who also follow D…

Thanks for this. These comments are a wasteland.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#796

Post by anon0192 »

People wonder why there was such an outrage. This article is a good starting point showing some of the effects that stereotypes can have on people:

http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/picture-yourself-as-a-s...

Two examples extracted and paraphrased:

* When women and men were both asked to "think like men" (article details how this was done) on a mental rotation test, they did about the same. When asked to think like women, there was a significant difference - around 1/3 drop of average score for women, 10% for men.

* Two groups were asked to take a test, but one of the groups was primed by the statement: “This is a genuine test of your verbal abilities and limitations due to various personal factors involved in performance.” - the test takers were given the impression that their score on the test was associated with their personal academic aptitude. The second group wasn't primed in this way. In the primed group, black people had a drop of performance of 2x (the number of items solved was halved).

Imagine having looked at studies like these. They show how severely people can be affected by stereotypes - orders of magnitude more than any statistically insignificant biological differences. If even the stereotyped are personally affected, imagine how much worse that can be in multiple-people situations (interviews, meetings etc) where the other people are not the target of the stereotype but has been influenced by it in their life...

So now a colleague is seemingly perpetuating stereotypes and those stereotypes are going viral. His argument may be more nuanced than that, but you fear that the stereotypes are all that people will take from it. For the most part that fear seems to be coming true. Whats the normal reaction there?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#797

Post by zaroth »

foobar_femme wrote: post #791

As a longtime female engineer at fintech startups, there was absolutely nothing new in Damore's memo. The only thing that gave these tired arguments any cachet at all was Google's name. And I really wish Google hadn't fired Damore. Special projects exists?! For years I have worked with and continue to work with guys who think just like this. In fact, thanks to Twitter, I now know all of my followers who also follow D…

Everything you said that's wrong with the interactions you have with male engineers, I'm not sure that James Damore would disagree with any of it, or claim that it doesn't happen, or say that we shouldn't be trying hard to change it.

What James argued is that the efforts Google is making and the way they are doing it are in some ways contributing to and making all of those bad experiences you listed worse.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#798

Post by micahbright »

dguaraglia wrote: post #254
gavanwoolery wrote: post #152

Interesting thoughts - I think the biggest misunderstanding thus far involves generalizations. You can accurately make generalizations about a group of people, without implying that a given individual necessarily falls under that generalization. For example you could say "80 percent of males are into action movies" - but you should not go up to an individual male and state "you are into action movies" if you care abo…

I'll just refer to the women in the article: > Assuming that it’s true that women on average are more likely to have trait X, why should any woman have to overcome the additional barrier of proving that she’s not like other women, or that if she IS like other women, that the trait has no bearing on her job performance?

I'm sure you can come up with a better argument. Assuming men are sexist and that you have to prove yourself to them is plainly hypocritical.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#799

Post by diedyesterday »

The government and society's (including workplaces) responsibility towards gender/race equity is to remove any legal/moral/social barriers for anyone (provided they have the interest and qualifications) to become anything. Going beyond that and trying to enforce a 50-50 gender quota/division in everything is itself ideologically motivated and an idiotic attempt at fighting biology. All you have to and should do is let anyone be anything. Whether this leads to a 50-50 division (gender-wise) is something biology and other factors will determine and should not concern us fundamentally.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#800

Post by droopybuns »

kevinwang wrote: post #752
droopybuns wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This section struck out to me too. what I realized is that I am older, more world wary and far more cynical about anyone looking out for me than your average young millennial. I think the dividing line is in that cynicism. I have never felt like anyone looked out for me. "How do I prove myself to people one way or another?" I have stopped trying to prove myself. I do what I think is right and am very wary of external…

>"How do I prove myself to people one way or another?" I don't think this was about generic proving-to-others. I think it's about being prejudged by others at first glance which minorities in tech get in every interaction they have. I think that it's valid to say that's a significant struggle. I have no expertise in this field of social ethics, so I'm hesitant to critique your comment when I'm as uninformed as anyone…

You are very cautious in your interpretation of my comments, and I think that is extremely valuable. Thank you.

>>If I'm interpreting this correctly as "This is what I did in response to my impulse to prove myself. This is what women in tech should do about their's as well."

I am very explicitly avoiding saying what someone should do. I try to celebrate different approaches than what I would have taken to the same problem. But I reserve the right to have an opinion bout the effectiveness of the approach. In this case, I think the outrage and fury directed towards a straw-filled white man has negative consequences. Maybe these activists will get what they are struggling towards, but not without consequences on how the quiet people perceive them. There is no monolithic group that will universally accept a position. Being restrained in your position will make people feel safe about expressing opinions that challenge your own.

>>So I think this need to prove yourself stems from a serious, real issue, and so it's wrong to downplay this issue by equating minorities' perpetual feeling of needing to prove themselves with your feelings, to conclude that the problem exists inside them, and not outside them.

I am not sure I agree that it is "wrong" to downplay it. This model has worked for me. Seems unhelpful to keep that perspective a secret. I have achieved a level of success I did not expect in my career.

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