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Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

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Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#161

Post by abakker »

octothorp3 wrote: post #159
abakker wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm with you to some extent. My mills, lathes, etc. are all very dangerous when treated wrong (Anything with a reasonable amount of horsepower is). Routers still freak me out since there is virtually no chance of reattaching things hit with a router. "A fine spray on the wall" is about all that's left. However, I'll also say that de-risking tools is a good idea. If you want to avoid complacency, then avoid it.…

Aside from safety, what do you see as nicer about the sawstop? I love my Powermatic 66, they can pry it from my cold, dead hands :)

I like the switch, the fence, and the surface finish of the table quite a bit. Small ergonomic changes that seem nice. I used to have a powermatic 66 and loved it too. Given the choice of buying a new saw, though, I wouldn't buy the powermatic just because of the safety.

Regarding cold, dead hands, is that before or after amputation by tablesaw? /s

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#162

Post by justin66 »

randyrand wrote: post #25

Ya, no. Besides the horrendous patent issue (say goodbye to market competition), this will double the price of table saws. No thanks. Consumer protection laws are not about making obvious choices for me. Its supposed to protect me from the unknown unknowns - things that the average consumer would not know is dangerous. Everyone has heard about these safer saws for over a decade now. Everyone knows saws are dangerous.…

> Besides the horrendous patent issue (say goodbye to market competition)

Bullshit. There are any number of ways to ensure the same functionality (just point a camera at the blade and have a computer stop the blade before it cuts somebody, rather than after, would be one obvious improvement) and if stopping the blade is mandated there will be plenty of competition.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#163

Post by jasode »

mikeash wrote: post #130
jasode wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Traffic fatality rates have dropped dramatically over the past few decades, and much of that can be attributed to safety technology. Yes that is true but it's not relevant to the idea that an alternate universe with different conditions could be safer than seat belts. If one truly engaged with the thought experiment, you'd have to try to imagine all side effects of the "ludicrous" spike. E.g. drivers no longer tail…

My point is that he hypothetical was really close to being real back before the 1970s or so. No seat belts and solid steering columns meant you'd die pretty easily. It didn't make people drive substantially more carefully. It is posssible that the slope of the curve dramatically reverses sometime between "no seat belts and stiff steering columns" and "literal spike in the middle of the steering wheel" but that seems…

>hypothetical was really close to being real back before the 1970s or so.

Our perceptions differ then because when I drove an old Plymouth without seat belts, I didn't drive it as gingerly as driving a modern car today with a birthday cake in the front seat. A literal steel spike into the heart would make me more cautious than worrying about a birthday cake slamming into the dashboard. The Plymouth's steering column never gave me the feeling of impending death but a literal spike would. I think that sharp point on the end as a constant reminder really matters for the thought experiment.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#164

Post by greedo »

spathi_fwiffo wrote: post #141
jasode wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the video[1], you can see the operator walking with the sled to rip a large panel. A cross cut sled on a traditional Powermatic/Delta/SawStop doesn't have the same capacity and the operator ends up standing in front of the saw and bending his hip to push the sled into the blade. The geometry of motion is different. With a sliding saw, you're mostly out of the line of fire of kickbacks. (The saw in the video is $40…

Seems good for a commercial application or a large volume hobbyist. Actually, not too different from what they seem to use at the hardware store for their cuts. But, what about the small scale home hobbyist that can't dedicate a huge space to their table saw (and has a budget under $1k).

A tracksaw (Festool is a good brand) is a better alternative than most table saws, at least for cutting down sheet goods. Combine it with a chop saw and you've covered a lot of the use cases for a table saw.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#165

Post by Rantenki »

luckydude wrote: post #95

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :) I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more d…

  >>But why not have an even safer tablesaw? Because I don't want to get complacent around one tool and have that feeling linger when I go use the next tool. They are all dangerous and all need to be treated with respect. Unless there is a way to make them all safe (there isn't), it doesn't make sense to me to have one safe one.
This argument is very irresponsible. Disclosure: I am a happy saw-stop owner who also has a large collection of POTENTIALLY very dangerous tools (gas-welding, milling machines, routers both CNC and otherwise, metal forming, etc).

First, every tool that is safer reduces your total risk. Saying that unless all tools are safe, none are, is nonsense.

Second, I know somebody that got caught in a drill press, and I can say from experience that you are very lucky that you only lost some hair. I find it odd that you argue against safety measures in the same paragraph where you note how you took a risk that could literally have lobotomized you.

Finally, safety measures aren't only about you. Does your wife ever use your tools? Is she OK with those risks? Do you have kids (I know a dude locally who got his hand into a planer when he was a _young_ child. He's surprisingly dextrous after being amputated around the first knuckle on every finger on his right hand). Not everybody understands the risks like you do, and it's hard for them to make an informed decisions when they learn to use those tools without some kind of industry guidance.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#166

Post by justin66 »

makomk wrote: post #28
birdman3131 wrote: post #15

As far as I know sawstop will trigger on wood that is lightly damp. And at ~$100 per occurrence it gets expensive fast ($70 for sawstop cartridge and 15-50 for a new blade.) Yes there is a bypass but you don't always know if the wood is too wet or not.

Bosch have a better system that doesn't destroy the blade or require the cartridge to be replaced every time because it merely retracts the blade very quickly into the bed, but SawStop are using their patents to stop Bosch from selling it. Apparently they went to the effort of patenting every possible approach that doesn't require the expensive but profitable single-use cartridge even though they have no intention of…

People tend to sue when their patents are violated.

Like it or not, that's the point of obtaining a patent.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#167

Post by jdavis703 »

yazan94 wrote: post #157

"CPSC Acting Chairman Ann Marie Buerkle said she was also concerned that the rule might force companies to license technology from SawStop, which she said might create a monopoly." I think this is a valid sentiment. Why should the federal government literally award a monopoly to one company? This is not consumer protection. People know what they are getting into when dealing with a saw. This is government overreach.…

If SawStop wants to show good faith they'll open source all of their patents. Otherwise this looks like blatant regulatory capture.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#168

Post by Someone1234 »

mfrykman wrote: post #94
birdman3131 wrote: post #15

As far as I know sawstop will trigger on wood that is lightly damp. And at ~$100 per occurrence it gets expensive fast ($70 for sawstop cartridge and 15-50 for a new blade.) Yes there is a bypass but you don't always know if the wood is too wet or not.

This is true, it does trigger with wet wood. Aside from framing lumber (2x4s, etc), most woodworking is done using kiln-dried hardwood, though. I worked around a sawstop at the Stanford student shop for a couple of years, and saw it triggered a handful of times: once was a piece of mirrored acrylic, once was a (wet) oak stump, and once was a TA's finger (he was fine, just a nick). We frequently turned the safety off…

It would be neat if they had a "test zone" where you could hold the material against to see if it was conductive.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#169

Post by saalweachter »

justin66 wrote: post #162
randyrand wrote: post #25

Ya, no. Besides the horrendous patent issue (say goodbye to market competition), this will double the price of table saws. No thanks. Consumer protection laws are not about making obvious choices for me. Its supposed to protect me from the unknown unknowns - things that the average consumer would not know is dangerous. Everyone has heard about these safer saws for over a decade now. Everyone knows saws are dangerous.…

> Besides the horrendous patent issue (say goodbye to market competition) Bullshit. There are any number of ways to ensure the same functionality (just point a camera at the blade and have a computer stop the blade before it cuts somebody, rather than after, would be one obvious improvement) and if stopping the blade is mandated there will be plenty of competition.

Also, patents expire. I don't know when the patent for this particular device was granted, but given that NPR wrote its first article on them in 2004, they can't have many years left of patent protection.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#170

Post by logfromblammo »

joosters wrote: post #42
randyrand wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they are patenting capacitive sensing in the context of detecting a finger? you know, like a touchscreen? Wow. The USPO fucking sucks. For the record, I don't even know how the sensing actually works in the saws. I'm just guessing because its fricken OBVIOUS.

So many things seem obvious after they are explained. Fact is, no-one had built this kind of thing before sawstop. If it were so obvious, how come only one company did it?

Why aren't there more theremin players?

Just because the tech exists doesn't mean it will be popular or economical.

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