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Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

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Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#121

Post by jsharf »

luckydude wrote: post #95

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :) I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more d…

I don't care how good the sawstop technology is. I still am super nervous around a table saw. I think for most people the fear is still there.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#122

Post by rsync »

yladiz wrote: post #50

I remember seeing this either on Science or Discovery channel when I was younger, talking about great inventions. I remember thinking it was a good idea, but forgot about it until last week when I saw an article pop up about the patent issue but that the FTC is thinking about contemplating making it mandatory. I think it should absolutely be mandatory, but I hope that the FTC can deal with the patent issue and let co…

"I think the argument that, "you should know that this item is unsafe" is stupid, because just because something is unsafe doesn't mean a good, quality of life saving feature should be excluded. You could make the same argument about having seatbelts or airbags in cars, because you know it's dangerous but you're taking the risk anyway. Accidents happen, taking measures to prevent them or mitigate the damages should be done, if possible."

When you engage in an unsafe activity with a very dangerous tool (chainsaw, for instance) your brain works in a particular way and you have a high level of vigilance and care.

When you engage in a totally safe, foolproof activity (crayons) your brain works in a totally different way.

Both of these approaches are appropriate and economical.

The problem is when you add enough safety features to a (still) dangerous activity that it causes people to take the wrong approach to the activity. That is a recipe for many, many more (and novel and interesting) accidents.

I don't know where the sawstop-enabled-saw fits in this model. I guess it's conceivable that, along with anti-kickback, etc., etc., a sawstop-enabled saw really is totally safe like crayons are. If so, great.

But if you think a table saw continues to be a dangerous, maiming tool even after adding the sawstop then I think it could be a net-negative with regard to safety.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#123

Post by proactivesvcs »

dpcx wrote: post #109
baumandm wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this like saying you're not going to wear a seatbelt, because driving is still unsafe and you don't want to get complacent? I get what you're saying, but I would want to utilize as many safety precautions as possible, no matter what I'm doing.

Sort of, but not really. The reason you wear a seatbelt (for the most part) is because of things that are outside of your control: other drivers. In the case of woodworking, there are no other woodworkers that are going to do something stupid. And yes, I know that you also wear a seatbelt to remove potential injury from only you driving (think if you lose control, etc). You do the same in woodworking; you use clamps…

The article lists someone at the safety hearing who's amputations were the result of something out of his control. Your statements against the seatbelt analogy would suggest that we should all be using this safety mechanism because, for the most part, there are things outside of our control that can seriously injure.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#124

Post by randallsquared »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #78
olympus wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Table saws aren't in the same class as cars. Table saws are mostly used by competent people and the injury rate is pretty low. When an accident does happen it only involves a single person and usually requires a few stitches. The cost savings of avoiding a few thousand people needing stitches is not even close to the cost of "modernizing the table saw fleet.". Plus, saws already come with a plethora of safety feature…

> Table saws are mostly used by competent people and the injury rate is pretty low. When an accident does happen it only involves a single person and usually requires a few stitches. 4000 people a year suffer from being mangled by a table saw. That's losing digits or an appendage (their entire hand). (NPR had a story about this a week or two ago) EDIT: Let's say, conservatively, each accident on average costs $100K i…

> NPR had a story about this a week or two ago

...this is that story.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#125

Post by hmahncke »

luckydude wrote: post #95

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :) I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more d…

name checks out.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#126

Post by jasode »

mikeash wrote: post #120
jasode wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just a hunch, but adding the safety break seems like a clear win. Human behavior is counterintuitive and maybe the situation would be worse. See excerpt: >Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, proves that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a convention…

The idea that we'd all be safer if we had a spike on our steering wheel is ludicrous. Traffic fatality rates have dropped dramatically over the past few decades, and much of that can be attributed to safety technology. There is merit in the argument that people behave more dangerously in the presence of safety equipment. But there's no reason to think it's so extreme that it overwhelms the positive contribution of th…

> Traffic fatality rates have dropped dramatically over the past few decades, and much of that can be attributed to safety technology.

Yes that is true but it's not relevant to the idea that an alternate universe with different conditions could be safer than seat belts. If one truly engaged with the thought experiment, you'd have to try to imagine all side effects of the "ludicrous" spike. E.g. drivers no longer tailgate at 70mph -- in fact, they may drive under the speedlimit of 55mph. Instead of whizzing through the neighborhood at 40mph, they drive less than 20mph because any random squirrel running into street would trigger a reaction to hit the brakes which causes the heart to be pierced. Maybe less parents would let their kids have a drivers license at age 16 and instead make them wait until age 18 because of an iron spike pointing at their kids chest would keep them up at night. (That's 2 years less of teen driving fatalities right there.)

There may be all sorts of hard-to-imagine secondary effects that would lead to less deaths than seat belts. That's the idea of truly playing with that thought experiment. It doesn't mean we'd ever realistically implement that idea.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#129

Post by hsod »

Pigo wrote: post #127

I came in hoping to stumble upon an explanation on the cast saw used in hospitals that won't cut skin at all. I believe I seen an explaination once, but it didn't sink it apparently. This must be a completely different technology.

https://myria.com/how-does-a-cast-saw-work-without-cutting-y...

tl;dr it vibrates instead of rotating which doesn't break skin because skin is flexible

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#130

Post by mikeash »

jasode wrote: post #126
mikeash wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that we'd all be safer if we had a spike on our steering wheel is ludicrous. Traffic fatality rates have dropped dramatically over the past few decades, and much of that can be attributed to safety technology. There is merit in the argument that people behave more dangerously in the presence of safety equipment. But there's no reason to think it's so extreme that it overwhelms the positive contribution of th…

> Traffic fatality rates have dropped dramatically over the past few decades, and much of that can be attributed to safety technology. Yes that is true but it's not relevant to the idea that an alternate universe with different conditions could be safer than seat belts. If one truly engaged with the thought experiment, you'd have to try to imagine all side effects of the "ludicrous" spike. E.g. drivers no longer tail…

My point is that he hypothetical was really close to being real back before the 1970s or so. No seat belts and solid steering columns meant you'd die pretty easily. It didn't make people drive substantially more carefully.

It is posssible that the slope of the curve dramatically reverses sometime between "no seat belts and stiff steering columns" and "literal spike in the middle of the steering wheel" but that seems unlikely and there's no reason to think that would happen.

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