Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On • Hacker News Board

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#91

Post by blackguardx » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 3:27 PM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #55

analog31 wrote: post #16

I own and use a tablesaw for home maintenance, and occasionally building utilitarian furniture, loudspeaker boxes (musician here), etc. My saw is an ancient Sears Roebuck that a buddy found at a garage sale. I'm aware of the SawStop technology, but haven't felt motivated to buy a brand new saw. The deal for me is simply that I don't have enough use for a saw, to justify buying a new one. I wouldn't recommend this app…

Tip buy a CNC router and throw the table saw out. Along with a bunch of other tools.

One of the most common uses of a table saw is preparing stock for other operations like ripping (cutting longitudinally) long boards or cutting a sheet of 4'x8' plywood into panels. You would need a pretty big CNC router to be able to do that.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#92

Post by yladiz » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 3:29 PM UTC

sjs382 wrote: post #77

yladiz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone isn't quite accurate; do they sell and advertise saws with this at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. where most people buy their power tools? I also think that thinking this will remove consumer choice is inaccurate as well, because if this was mandatory it's not like current saw manufacturers would simply stop selling saws. My understanding is this product doesn't really change much over time, and while there might b…

Currently it's just saws from SawStop (now owned by Festool, IIRC?). Bosch released a saw with similar tech (called Reaxx -- https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/more/news-and-extras/specia... ) but they were forced to stop selling it. To answer your first question, you can't buy a SawStop at Home Depot or Lowes. If this tech was mandatory, it would force other saw manufacturers to charge $200 more per saw to cover paten…

Let's say the patent issue was rendered unnecessary (maybe courts require safety tech but also require the patent to be allowed royalty free) -- how much would this add to the cost of the saws? If the patent was still valid and they had to license it, are you sure it would add $200? The tech seems simple enough that I have a hard time believing a $400-ish saw becomes $600 due to this.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#93

Post by yladiz » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 3:35 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #75

yladiz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone isn't quite accurate; do they sell and advertise saws with this at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. where most people buy their power tools? I also think that thinking this will remove consumer choice is inaccurate as well, because if this was mandatory it's not like current saw manufacturers would simply stop selling saws. My understanding is this product doesn't really change much over time, and while there might b…

> do they sell and advertise saws with this at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. where most people buy their power tools? Yes, they did. Both companies carried Bosch REAXX saws, which have injury detection sensors, and are advertised accordingly. ^edited to past tense because there's apparently an injunction banning US sales of REAXX. So they tried to, and the reason they don't is that the company advocating for this law won't…

I mean, beyond this specific issue, it does seem they were infringing on the patent, so he has a right to sue to stop it being sold or get royalties from new and previous sales.

I think this tech should be mandatory in all saws, but I also think that one company shouldn't have control over the licensing and it probably shouldn't be something companies have to pay for.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#94

Post by mfrykman » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

birdman3131 wrote: post #15

As far as I know sawstop will trigger on wood that is lightly damp. And at ~$100 per occurrence it gets expensive fast ($70 for sawstop cartridge and 15-50 for a new blade.) Yes there is a bypass but you don't always know if the wood is too wet or not.

This is true, it does trigger with wet wood. Aside from framing lumber (2x4s, etc), most woodworking is done using kiln-dried hardwood, though.

I worked around a sawstop at the Stanford student shop for a couple of years, and saw it triggered a handful of times: once was a piece of mirrored acrylic, once was a (wet) oak stump, and once was a TA's finger (he was fine, just a nick).

We frequently turned the safety off if a student needed to cut something that we knew might trigger it - it's just a key that you turn next to the start/stop switch.

The blade is not always ruined - just depends on the blade you're using. We primarily used a blade with carbide tips (which is very common, though more expensive), and I never saw the blade ruined.

Personally, I would never buy a table saw without this technology. However, I'm not sure we need a law to require it.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#95

Post by luckydude » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :)

I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more dangerous than a table saw, don't get me started about my shaper, etc. Tablesaws, treated with respect, are very safe.

But why not have an even safer tablesaw? Because I don't want to get complacent around one tool and have that feeling linger when I go use the next tool. They are all dangerous and all need to be treated with respect. Unless there is a way to make them all safe (there isn't), it doesn't make sense to me to have one safe one.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#96

Post by pc86 » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 3:48 PM UTC

beambot wrote: post #86

readams wrote: post #5

They don't mention if it's possible to build saws without sawstop patents. Is this guy lobbying for all saw companies to be required to license his technology? EDIT: It appears that they're currently suing Bosch for developing their own similar technology.

How did seatbelts in cars overcome this issue? Are there loopholes available for "overwhelming societal influence"?

Volvo held the patent for the 3-point seat belt and voluntarily gave it up. Being able to say "well on second thought, this invention is just so good we actually want to give it away" would be a chilling effect on exactly the inventions we want - those with overwhelming positive societal influence.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#97

Post by jasode » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #78

olympus wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Table saws aren't in the same class as cars. Table saws are mostly used by competent people and the injury rate is pretty low. When an accident does happen it only involves a single person and usually requires a few stitches. The cost savings of avoiding a few thousand people needing stitches is not even close to the cost of "modernizing the table saw fleet.". Plus, saws already come with a plethora of safety feature…

> Table saws are mostly used by competent people and the injury rate is pretty low. When an accident does happen it only involves a single person and usually requires a few stitches. 4000 people a year suffer from being mangled by a table saw. That's losing digits or an appendage (their entire hand). (NPR had a story about this a week or two ago) EDIT: Let's say, conservatively, each accident on average costs $100K i…

>Just a hunch, but adding the safety break seems like a clear win.

Human behavior is counterintuitive and maybe the situation would be worse. See excerpt:

>Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, proves that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw. Logic dictates that this increase in accident rate on SawStop saws is due primarily to a user’s decision to use the blade guard less frequently due to a “sense of security” in having the SawStop flesh-sensing technology on the saw. [1]

The analysis above may be flawed and/or come from a self-serving biased source. Either way, it's similar to the famous thought experiment about seat belts in cars: Volvo's generosity in giving the world seat belts without patent encumbrances didn't make the world "safer". Instead, if governments mandated a sharp iron spike in the steering wheel pointing just a few centimeters short of every driver's heart, that would actually make us safer than seatbelts.[2] It may have been tongue-in-cheek but it may also be true.

In my case when I researched saws, I seriously looked at SawStop and valued its flesh detection safety but ultimately preferred a European style sliding saw[3] that doesn't have the flesh detector. In my opinion, a sliding saw without the blade stop is "safer" overall than a SawStop. Of course, it would be nice if all saws had SawStop technology but if I had to choose among tradeoffs, I'd go with the sliding saw. The drawback is that it's more expensive.

Where there SawStop technology is more non-negotiable is the portable jobsite saw. A contractor can't transport the giant footprint of a sliding saw into a truck and then into a customer's house remodeling jobsite. Therefore, you want a portable saw with all the safety features possible.

[1] http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-fac...

[2] http://stuartbuck.blogspot.com/2008/08/spikes-and-steering-w...

[3] https://www.google.com/search?q=european+sliding+saw&source=...

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#98

Post by Sleeep » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 3:53 PM UTC

iDemonix wrote: post #38

As someone who accidentally put a thumb through a table saw, this technology is awesome and I hope to see it become more mainstream.

What was the outcome? Did you require stitches or lose the thumb? Do you have lasting nerve damage or similar?

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#99

Post by mturmon » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 3:53 PM UTC

inb4dangshitban wrote: post #6

From what I saw, the entire system is more or less single use, resulting in a destruction of the sawblade and the catch. As well as severe shock to the drive. I'm not one bit surprised there is serious opposition to the idea, capitalism and all

Even a very good blade is in the neighborhood of $100. The catch is about $70. The trunnion and drive mechanism of the Sawstop is very solid, it's meant to cope with these shocks.

This is nowhere near what a hand injury would be.

The table saw is the most dangerous piece of equipment in a standard wood shop. Even very experienced people can get into trouble on a table saw.

It's kind of like the F# versus C conversation, but with your hand.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#100

Post by abakker » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 3:54 PM UTC

luckydude wrote: post #95

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :) I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more d…

Yeah, I'm with you to some extent. My mills, lathes, etc. are all very dangerous when treated wrong (Anything with a reasonable amount of horsepower is). Routers still freak me out since there is virtually no chance of reattaching things hit with a router. "A fine spray on the wall" is about all that's left.

However, I'll also say that de-risking tools is a good idea. If you want to avoid complacency, then avoid it. If you can't take the vigilance you have around a lathe or a shaper and apply it to a tablesaw, just because the tablesaw is safe, I'd say you should probably reconsider your safety practices. There is a difference between good process and complete paranoia.

At present, I have a standard delta saw, because it's what I have. It is "dangerous" and also kind of lousy. Because of the way the trunion mounts the blade carriage, it is not possible to adjust the blade to 45° without a few thousandth of pinch.

I know my next saw will be a saw stop. They are safer, yes, but they are also incredibly nice saws. Compared to the powermatic I used to have, they are even better. When I move next, my Delta won't be coming with me, and I'll be ordering a saw stop.