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Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

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Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#131

Post by dom0 »

zanny wrote: post #39
bhouston wrote: post #31

What will be the clock when single threaded? Can we get above 5GHz finally?

We have been over 5ghz for a decade, it just takes ln2 to do it. We aren't going to see ludicrously high clock rates for the foreseeable future. There are a lot of compounding factors as to why, but the biggest ones are the pressure for efficiency driving designs that aren't dumping higher and higher voltage to get frequency, the diminishing returns on voltage vs frequency (see Ryzen, where a 20% improvement in clock…

> We have been over 5ghz for a decade, it just takes ln2 to do it.

Non-x86 systems went over 5 GHz on air many years ago, e.g. IBM POWER.

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#132

Post by nowherecat »

turblety wrote: post #99
andy_ppp wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone here know someone who works on these various management engines? It'd be interesting to see if the security services were involved or if they really were back dooring all computers right? My guess is it's definitely possible but it would have been popped by foreign agencies by now too and there would have been a leak of tools to exploit such devices? I guess maybe it's very tempting to be able to hack any…

There was this floating around a while ago: https://i.redd.it/id88hvysu3ny.png

Well, this seems quite a bit unsubstantial. If an Intel Employee in that position wanted to leak some real info, i would assume it would be accompanied by something that gives the information some credibility.

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#133

Post by cyphar »

lawik wrote: post #88
turblety wrote: post #83

I wonder if this one will come with free backdoors and spyware installed, thanks to the wonderful Intel Management Engine (Intel ME) backdoor. [1][2][3] Intel (and AMT) keep pushing more and more proprietary code that can not be read, changed or removed. No one knows exactly what it does and it has built in screen and key recording. It's my advice and the advice of privacy advocates that no one should purchase or use…

Interesting. Pragmatically, are there any okay-ish options for consumer-level processors and motherboards that are not Intel or AMD? ARM devices?

The Talos II[1], which is a IBM POWER9-based machine. It's a bit more expensive than a standard Intel machine (~$2k for the whole prebuilt machine, a bit less for just the motherboard+CPU).

Everything in it is free, including all of the firmware, and the CPU is an open specification.

[1]: https://www.raptorcs.com/content/base/products.html

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#134

Post by mtgx »

spyhi wrote: post #7
wmf wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ice Lake has been delayed from 2017 to 2018, so I'm not sure what competition has to do with it.

> it's rare these days for Intel to talk more than a generation ahead in CPU architectures. This, to me, looks like the PS2 vs Dreamcast move, where Sony blocked Dreamcast sales with PS2 hype. We've been waiting for 10nm for a while now, and now Intel is essentially confirming "yes, it's really coming this time" where they might not have otherwise--it's hard to not see that as a reaction to Threadripper. At least on…

The most obvious/shameless situation like this was when they "launched" their Core i9 processors.

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#135

Post by mtgx »

GuiA wrote: post #10

According to the table in the article: - 2011: 32nm - 2012: 22nm - 2014: 14nm - 2018?: 10nm I don't know much about foundry processes, but it seems that it's taking more and more time for lesser and lesser gains, right? At this rate, how long until we reach sub nanometer? What are the physical limits on these processes, and does it have any implications for end users? Will we be using 2nm CPUs for 50 years? Would lov…

Didn't 14nm arrive late 2015 or in 2016?

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#136

Post by qubex »

vbezhenar wrote: post #116
sspiff wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this should be discussed in this thread. Also, I don't know of any alternative that doesn't have large unauditable blobs integrated into the chip. All ARM SoCs come with radio processors that are running a non-trivial piece of software with full access to the system memory, which is responsible for power management, boot sequence and wireless communications. It is by definition network connected. AMD has…

Check out Talos II motherboard. It's a workstation-class motherboard with dual POWER9 CPUs for $2750. It's a good price for workstation computer IMO. They claim that all their firmware is open source. Specifications are quite modern. The only problem is (kind of) exotic architecture, but many people would be able to use it with open source software.

I was scanning thought he comments to see if somebody had already mentioned this and if you hadn't I would have.

I am finding the Talos II an increasingly attractive proposition, even though the prices got a full system are quite staggering by comparison to mainstream hardware.

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#137

Post by goodroot »

turblety wrote: post #83

I wonder if this one will come with free backdoors and spyware installed, thanks to the wonderful Intel Management Engine (Intel ME) backdoor. [1][2][3] Intel (and AMT) keep pushing more and more proprietary code that can not be read, changed or removed. No one knows exactly what it does and it has built in screen and key recording. It's my advice and the advice of privacy advocates that no one should purchase or use…

This is disturbing, to say the least. Given how much effort I've invested in securing myself, it's... disappointing. The rationale, it seems, is that government doesn't count as "someone to be concerned about", from a security point of view.

I'm curious about how one would be associated with a particular chip. I understand that key strokes can be logged, TCP/IP can be read; you can be scraped, but ultimately how is their backdoor aware of you so that it doesn't appear to them like needle in a stack of needles. A fascinating and revolting technical conundrum.

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#138

Post by dom0 »

slededit wrote: post #95
coldtea wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I used to believe that, until I started to get into cryptocoin mining. 99% of the apps we use are totally unlike cryptocoin mining. And the style they are written (and more importantly, their function) is even more GPU resistant. > The tooling isn't good enough yet, but there is no question in my mind practically everything will run on a GPU like processor in the future. The speedups are just too tremendous. Don't…

While true in the short term, it should be noted Intel is moving more towards the GPU model with its many slower core CPUs and very wide vector units. There is value in a large core capable of fast out of order execution for control purposes. But data processing can be done much faster with a GPU model. You can even implement explicit speculative execution - simply use a warp for each path and choose at the end. It i…

No, Intel's approach is very different from GPUs, because Intel has a strong negative interest in making porting to GPUs easy (also, wide vectors are far easier to do in a CPU than a "GPU like model").

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#139

Post by dom0 »

zanny wrote: post #41
ant6n wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never run a piece of software that used a GPU for anything other than rendering. I believe I'm part of a very large majority.

Libreoffice has OpenCL acceleration for some spreadsheet operations. With the advent of NVME storage, and the potential bandwidth it yields, I would expect to see database systems emerging that can GPGPU accelerate operations on tables to be way, way faster than what a CPU can handle.

> I would expect to see database systems emerging that can GPGPU accelerate operations on tables to be way, way faster than what a CPU can handle.

Why do you expect that? Many DBMS operations that are not I/O limited are memory limited, and a GPU does not help you there (on the contrary, you get another bottleneck in data transfers to the small GPU memory). What can help is better data organization, e.g. transposed (columnar) storage.

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#140

Post by willtim »

kakwa_ wrote: post #70
nullnilvoid wrote: post #4

As a consumer, it's great to see competition picking up in the CPU market. Intel does not seem to be able to hold the edge in node process as tsmc and Samsung are matching intel. It has to resort to architecture design.

Well actually I think it's more a case of "increase in performance is becoming harder and harder, the technology leader (Intel) is slowly becoming stuck and the competition (AMD) is catching up". Everybody will be more or less at the same level as it requires huge investments to only get a marginal advantage. Apart from games, I would not be that afraid to install recent pieces of software (browser, office suit, os)…

> There are still tons of things to improve in CPUs: power consumption, cost, embedded functionalities (SoC)

Don't forget bugs! We have had buggy silicon, microcode and drivers, all of which probably still need fixing.

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