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Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

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Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#81

Post by mmirate »

mulmen wrote: post #41
Nelkins wrote: post #39

A professor at the University of Rochester (my alma mater) has begun a project to better evaluate the value of a liberal arts education, and to try and quantify what impact it truly has on the career trajectories and future earnings of graduates[1]. [1] https://www.rochester.edu/pr/Review/V79N6/0304_lennie.html

The benefits of a higher education are more than just career path and earnings.

Perhaps they are, perhaps they aren't; I'm not a Doctor of Education, so I can't and won't claim that I know the answer to that question.

My question to you, is applicable regardless:

As an industry-destined BSCS student, in what ways does my future improve as a result of my education, except for career path and earnings? And if there are such (nontrivial) ways, then why should I care about them?

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#82

Post by fasquoika »

gnaritas wrote: post #58
jstewartmobile wrote: post #52

Parents, teachers, and students are so focused on "education" as a pedigree and job pipeline that if they don't see an immediate connection between a topic and a paycheck they're like "Who cares?! Why are you wasting my kid's time on that?" When the whole thing is an exercise in competitive pedigreeing, of course it's going to be gamed. If it were more about human development, we'd be focusing on the deltas instead,…

They're not wrong to worry about that, it's a rough world out there and getting a good job is vastly more important to most people than "human development". Parents don't send their kids to college to become better people, they do it to make sure they have a skill that can lead to a career so they can survive on their own. Only the rich have the luxury of being concerned about something other than a job.

I think the real issue here is that our schools are somewhere between liberal arts and vocational, so they do a pretty shitty job at both

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#83

Post by thisrod »

I'm amazed by the range of completion rates in that first scatter plot. Here are the Australian figures, for contrast. Note that living in the NT is strongly correlated with being Indigenous. (Indigenous Australians are the people formerly known as Aborigines.)

http://www.mitchellinstitute.org.au/fact-sheets/senior-schoo...

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#84

Post by glangdale »

sien wrote: post #54
glangdale wrote: post #46

This is a good article. I wish I could force everyone who pontificates on schooling in Australia to read it. We have an enormous private school system (part govt-funded, which is gross) that can get rid of students as they please. Then they go on to verbally dump shit on the public system, where they get to dump their problem students. Nice. We also have a real fetish for selective schools, which are essentially sele…

The private school system in Australia saves the government money. Per student funding in the private system is lower than per student funding in the public system. This money is then available to spend more on government schools. It also keeps the government system honest because people can and do leave schools that don't work such as many of those in poor areas in the outer suburbs of the big cities and regional ar…

This may be true that the private system as a whole saves the government money. However, I'm not sure that the last dollar of subsidies spent on the private system saves the government any money at all - i.e. would someone switch to a public school if that dollar was taken away, or would the private schools just move the cost to the consumer who would bear it, or perhaps they might cut back on the indoor shooting range or second Olympic pool (in the case that the dollar is going to an elite private school)?

The argument about that last dollar obviously extends backward quite a way before becoming hugely disruptive or that big a deal. Obviously cutting all subsidies to the private system overnight would be an enormous disruption, but it's far from clear to me that the policy of subsidizing private schools at the current level saves the government any money at all.

As for keeping the government system honest - I think this works both ways. I think having people exercising "feet" rather than "voice" harms the public system by taking out people from participation. The argument is similar about selective public schools (I went to one). I see a lot of flaws in the public system too - tons! - and any strong movement back towards public education in Australia would have to be accompanied by some major changes in how they are run (IMO way too much for the convenience of mediocre teachers and even-more-mediocre bureaucrats).

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#85

Post by glangdale »

oldandtired wrote: post #61
glangdale wrote: post #46

This is a good article. I wish I could force everyone who pontificates on schooling in Australia to read it. We have an enormous private school system (part govt-funded, which is gross) that can get rid of students as they please. Then they go on to verbally dump shit on the public system, where they get to dump their problem students. Nice. We also have a real fetish for selective schools, which are essentially sele…

First, let me ask you a question - Are you a teacher in any Australian school? Secondly, you have just pontificated on schooling in Australia - so, my second question is, if an article came out with different conclusions (with which you disagreed) would you be amenable to being force to read it as you are in the class of people who pontificates on schooling in Australia. There are good private schools and there are g…

Your remarks seem like a collection of things you'd like to say, a bit of abuse ("pontificated", reiterates the guy who replied to my 5-liner with a rambling mini-essay about a large array of random education issues not connected to my post), and an appeal to authority (I'm not a teacher -so what?)

I am not proposing the private schools shut down. I would like to see them funded less (and suspect that we would continue to have a private school sector if they were not funded at all). I would like people to stop attributing the success of privates/selectives to the fact that they can admit who they like and kick out their problems.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#87

Post by mercutio2 »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #42
aetherson wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's... exactly what he said.

Yes, but without mentioning the ACT.

You seem to be taking issue with the fact that the piece could be interpreted as implying 97% of MS students didn’t want to go to college. Obviously, if that was his point, he was omitting the most important detail.

His point was that if you bias the data source, you get results that you shouldn’t project onto the general population. The specific explanation of the 97% disinterest in the SAT is well and truly irrelevant.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#88

Post by glangdale »

thundergolfer wrote: post #74
glangdale wrote: post #46

This is a good article. I wish I could force everyone who pontificates on schooling in Australia to read it. We have an enormous private school system (part govt-funded, which is gross) that can get rid of students as they please. Then they go on to verbally dump shit on the public system, where they get to dump their problem students. Nice. We also have a real fetish for selective schools, which are essentially sele…

What's the problem with selective schools? I think mostly everyone is aware that selective schools are successful because of selection bias. I went to Melbourne High in Victoria (all boys academic selective), and think my peers and I benefitted from leaving our original (mostly public) schools to go there. Do you think the education system overall suffers from the 'extracting' of these students out of their original…

I went to North Sydney Boys High (all boys academic selective, like you). I think we benefited. I think the schools we were taken out of did not. Back in the era of narrower catchments for selective schools, it was more like losing the top 10-20% for a bunch of nearby schools rather than skimming off a few people from every school in Sydney.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#89

Post by mercutio2 »

leongrado wrote: post #15

I'm from the midwest and most people who weren't aiming for Ivy Leagues just took the ACT.

I’m from the Midwest and went to a majority black public high school.

In all seriousness, I had never even heard of the ACT until college. The SAT and AP exams were the only tests ever discussed with us.

I suspect there may be more variation in this than geography.

Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education

#90

Post by [deleted] »

bpodgursky wrote: post #70
banach wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary. The less you have, the more you stand to benefit from appreciating other things than possessions.

Yes, I'm sure a generation trying to save for a house under burden of student loans appreciates your sage bullshit advice. Must really appreciate the lack of affordable health care and never being able to afford a family. But at least you can appreciate it!

[deleted]
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