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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#671
post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a woman I can say "women are less inclined to be engineers" is only a skip and hop away from "women are not suited to be engineers. I would say don't even bother with the biological argument because as a woman you likely know all too well how it's mainly used. Anyway, its not really the business of a company to argue such abstract matters. It's one thing to be teased about these things but it's another to have peo…

So, honest question. Suppose you work at a hospital, and 70% of the nurses are women. And you're coming under fire, and a lawsuit is pending, because this indicates discrimination. Now suppose a coworker writes a piece saying roughly "Way fewer men apply for these positions. I suspect men are less interested in being nurses, so we have fewer male nurses, but we can't lower the bar just to make it 50-50. I think it's…

Sure, honest answer. First off, saying 70% nurses are women does not indicate discrimination. Plenty of the jobs I've applied for as a woman are small startups with over 70% men but I've never thought that this was due to discrimination. We're talking here about a policy that Google engages in voluntarily.

So we know that according to the memo that Google seeks to reduce the number of "false negative" rejections of diversity candidates by paying more attention to those applications. This could be to help counteract discrimination that occurs during the process. This ends up with about 20% qualified women in these positions.

There is nothing here to indicate that the bar is being lowered (the interview process is just as grueling) or that 50-50 is the aim. But if men were being discriminated at when trying to get these nurses jobs, I'd have no problem whatsoever with the respective companies trying to reduce the number of false negatives during the hiring process. Or even just trying to hire more men to create an environment of more diversity among nurses. Those men who are hired there are still there because they want the job and are qualified to do it.

The problem with the biological argument is that historically it hasn't been used to say that "women are not inclined to do x,y,z" but rather "women are not suited to do it". So if there was a historical parallel with nursing and men and people in the past did not think they were capable of doing this job - I'd say people should be more sensitive about what they say in the work environment in our modern day.

A - Generally no, but if the memo was broadcast to the whole company and touched on this points due to the reasons expressed above - I think its ok for the company to take action in the way it deems appropriate.

B - Could be, if that was the prevailing belief system. Realistically though, its not a true parallel because I don't think many people believe that men are not capable of being nurses.

C - Not sure what this means. Whether they are biological factors or social ones should not be something thats asserted by a company. That's going into way too grey territory imo.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...it’s an unequal burden my male coworkers don’t have to deal with every day. Maybe. There's a lot of diversity within the male gender. I know I'm an outlier at work due to my politics, my religious beliefs, and other details of my background. I sometimes wonder which of my coworkers have something against me. I know all of them don't (or at least they are professional regardless), but people from my background ar…

> I know I'm an outlier at work due to my politics, my religious beliefs, and other details of my background. Right. Now imagine being an outlier due to your biology in a way that's impossible to conceal. I'm an outlier in some ways from my peers as well. But I just don't talk about those beliefs or those parts of my life. You don't have the option to do that if you're female or a visible minority.

> Now imagine being an outlier due to your biology in a way that's impossible to conceal.

Who said I was concealing anything?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#673
post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

I think one thing that struck me from the linked article was the point that the memo wasn't structured to invite discussion. It wasn't "let's have a chat", it was "here's an evidence bomb of how you're all wrong". I think advancing points is fine, but if you're after productive discussion rather than an adversarial debate, you need to proactively invite discussion. And if an adversarial debate was what he was after,…

Wasn't it posted on a board Google specifically set up for posts like this?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this has been talked about multiple times over - Damore did not have a line that states that women and/or minorities are bad engineers. He does, however, clearly state that Google's hiring standards had 'lowered the bar' for women and minorities. I think it's awfully charitable not to infer that he considers the women/minorities at Google (on average) to be inferior engineers. Still, it's true that he never s…

> He does, however, clearly state that Google's hiring standards had 'lowered the bar' for women and minorities. He basically said the opposite, but people have been so interested in triggering off the 'lowered the bar' phrasing to show their outrage that they're (seemingly willfully) ignoring the rest of the sentence which completely changed the meaning. But 'by lowering false negatives' is hugely important. Google'…

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#675
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's stance, as stated in the article, is that they divert more energy in to finding minority candidates. That's not the same as a lower bar. Abilities are expected to be distributed equally still.

> Google's stance, as stated in the article, is that they divert more energy in to finding minority candidates. That's not the same as a lower bar. Abilities are expected to be distributed equally still. That has a very pernicious effect across the industry though. Think about what that policy does to other companies . The other companies won't have as many high quality women because Google scouted and hired them alr…

> The other companies won't have as many high quality women because Google scouted and hired them already, but will have just as many low and medium quality women who aren't good enough for Google, and more high quality men who were displaced from Google. Which skews the gender ratio even more and creates the impression that women at those companies are lower quality than the men there or else they would have been hired away by Google -- because it causes that impression to be the truth.

At some point people are going to have to start presenting evidence to back up these sorts of fanciful claims. I've heard lots and lots of wild claims about how industry practices are being harmed and absolutely zero evidence.

You can make up all sorts of stories based on your preferred biases. You can claim that Google hiring many high quality women forces other firms to hire low-quality women and high-quality men. I can claim that Google hiring many high quality women actually attracts more high-quality women to the industry raising the quality of the talent pool across the board.

Both of these claims are completely baseless. There is zero evidence either way. Like the memo itself which made all sorts of wild and extraordinary claims these claims should be recognized for what they are: unsupported agenda pushing and not valid argument.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#676
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's stance, as stated in the article, is that they divert more energy in to finding minority candidates. That's not the same as a lower bar. Abilities are expected to be distributed equally still.

> Google's stance, as stated in the article, is that they divert more energy in to finding minority candidates. That's not the same as a lower bar. Abilities are expected to be distributed equally still. That has a very pernicious effect across the industry though. Think about what that policy does to other companies . The other companies won't have as many high quality women because Google scouted and hired them alr…

[deleted]

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#677
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote you mentioned results from the process he criticized, not his criticizing it.

This is only true if the process he criticized is actually real.

What reasoning does Damore have to lie?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#678
post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

> I do not think that anyone's ability to write should disbar them from discussion. We can not expect perfection from others. Instead we should try to understand them as human beings, and interpret them with generosity and kindness. I'm a huge proponent of the principle of charity, but I found it impossible to apply to the Google Memo. Not because I'm deeply mired in political correctness (I have a range of views peo…

> Damore points to studies showing that, e.g. women are more agreeable and more people-oriented. From that, he concludes women on average are less likely to prefer programming.

That's Diekman 2010:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20631322

"Although women have nearly attained equality with men in several formerly male-dominated fields, they remain underrepresented in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM). We argue that one important reason for this discrepancy is that STEM careers are perceived as less likely than careers in other fields to fulfill communal goals (e.g., working with or helping other people). Such perceptions might disproportionately affect women's career decisions, because women tend to endorse communal goals more than men. As predicted, we found that STEM careers, relative to other careers, were perceived to impede communal goals. Moreover, communal-goal endorsement negatively predicted interest in STEM careers, even when controlling for past experience and self-efficacy in science and mathematics."

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#679
post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3rd wave, whose actions betray their true goals: men as second class citizens.

Please keep ideological talking points off HN. If you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; otherwise please don't comment until you do.

The onus is on you to disprove them, they made no irrational claims. If you have some problem with any of their concepts, say so.

Your attack on whether his comment is 'thoughtful' or not is weak.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#680
post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

Yes! This is progress is made.
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