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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#571

Post by md224 »

oconnor663 wrote: post #225
joe_the_user wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually say just the opposite - the memo seemed to be written as well and in as conciliatory manner as it could be written and the memo made good (or at least plausible) point and bad points. But the bad points were so bad that it was appropriate and necessary to fire Damore. Essentially, as analogy, there's no way for a person to say "Black people are inferior and shouldn't be hired", as a message broadcast thr…

> in as conciliatory manner as it could be written Strongly disagree. I think emphasis is a really big deal here. Here's a key line from the memo: > Of course, men and women experience bias, tech, and the workplace differently and we should be cognizant of this, but it’s far from the whole story. This runs right into the Jon Snow line, "everything before the word 'but' is horse____." It comes across that the author d…

I may not be correct here, but it seems to me that Jon Snow's remark isn't universally true.

(Paradoxes FTW!)

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#572

Post by jancsika »

johnp_ wrote: post #98
ryanbrunner wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one thing that struck me from the linked article was the point that the memo wasn't structured to invite discussion. It wasn't "let's have a chat", it was "here's an evidence bomb of how you're all wrong". I think advancing points is fine, but if you're after productive discussion rather than an adversarial debate, you need to proactively invite discussion. And if an adversarial debate was what he was after,…

It was apparently a live-document (like etherpad) and the intention was get feedback directly in-line if I understood correctly. Not an unusual way of doing things for an engineer.

It's usual for an engineer to understand something outside their field of expertise by submitting a draft of what they know to others who aren't domain experts, either?

Wouldn't an actual engineering process have started by submitting a document for feedback from somebody whose field of expertise deals with unequal gender representation in the workplace?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#573

Post by yarg »

This I think is a problem with the culture and education system of our society, by the time we reach the point of hiring someone the damage is already done.

I don't think it makes a hell of a lot of sense to chose someone on the grounds of what minority or oppressed group they happen to be a part of - hire the best person for the job (this shouldn't simply take into account the skills of the individual, but also how well they can be expected to integrate into the group that they are becoming a part of).

We need to look into the underlying causes of the gender and race imbalances in the pool from which we are hiring.

For women, this means looking at why it is that girls seem to be disuaded from interest in the fields in question. From my perspective my interest in the engineering fields emerged from being exposed to things as simple as transformers (the toys, not the modern explosion porn), while my sisters were playing with Barbies (a line of toys that I still consider vapid and pointless) I was marvelling at the fact that a few joints and pivots can be structured in such a way as to allow transition between vehicular and humanoid forms. Allowing girls to think in mathematical and engineering terms without attaching a social stigma of acting boyish will help in this regard.

From the perspective of racial minorities, there is a multi-generational poverty cycle coupled with a far lower standard of education. It cuts them off at the knees before they even get started.

Fix the education system and the discouraging culture in and of our society and things will balance out - eventually.

But the current way of doing things is a feel good solution that deals with the symptoms - and ignores the underlying disease.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#574

Post by Alain-lf »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #509
xienze wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be honest here -- do you _really_ think there's a way to present the argument that --gasp-- men and women might be different in their abilities that _wouldn't_ trigger a meltdown? I think this memo really highlights the fact that there are Some Things You Just Can't Talk About.

No, you can't, because there isn't evidence that biological differences cause people to choose different careers. Why would put forth a theory that is opposed to a company's values of equality if you don't have proof? Most evidence points to socialized factors, not biological ones. If Damore really cares about this issue, he should study biology and make his case there. He will do more to move the debate forward from…

> he should study biology

He has a master in systems biology from Harvard.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#576

Post by humanrebar »

camgunz wrote: post #377
nicolashahn wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about a woman having to prove her technical ability to her male coworkers at work because of their prejudices. I know that that's bullshit and I'm sorry they have to do so. I'm talking about handling what Damore claimed in an intellectually honest way. You can't dismiss his points just because you're tired of talking about them (or what you think are the same points you've always been talking about, b…

> We should be able to talk about his arguments honestly and rationally without falling back on gendered reasons at this point at least. We are and lots of people are doing so, but another point made in this post is that the workplace isn't the venue for this.

Shouldn't employers abstain from controversial subjects as well, then? It seems one sided to hold employees to that standard but not the corporations and bosses they work for.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#577

Post by [deleted] »

generic_user wrote: post #153
rpiguy wrote: post #6

I really enjoyed the well reasoned discussion. I think a lot more constructive dialog is happening now that people have calmed down. Of all the sentiments expressed in the article, I mainly disagree with the comment that Damore did the company harm. He posted his thoughts on an internal discussion board and someone else leaked this internal document to the press. The leaker did harm to Google not Damore. In fact, I t…

> There are many people who believe he should have been fired anyway for offending his female coworkers and perhaps making them feel unsafe. I feel unsafe as a Man when people advocate that employers should engage in gender discrimination against Men to enforce an arbitrary ratio of Men/Women the workforce. Do I have the right to feel safe? Do Men have the right to get Women fired because they feel unsafe and threate…

[deleted]

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#578

Post by emsy »

kristianc wrote: post #122
annexrichmond wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. He mentioned in an interview[1] that he was looking to be proven wrong which is what led him to share it with the Skeptics group at Google, which is when the document propagated. He had actually wrote the document weeks prior but was unsatisfied with the lack of discussion on his document. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU

That seems an odd approach tbh. Many 'Skeptics' groups (Skeptic / Rationalist YouTube) online at least would agree with his reasoning. It strikes me as odd that he was seeking to take down an ideological echo chamber but published it initially in the echo chamber most likely to agree with him.

Scepticism is a methodology, not a political group. I think it just looks that way because the term has been kind of hijacked by anti-regressives.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#579

Post by ryanx435 »

azernik wrote: post #570
belorn wrote: post #242

A common criticism by each four of the female engineers is how the memo effected them in their job and how they had to prove themselves afterward. This strongly reminds me of about a case a year ago when a kindergarten teacher was tried and charged for rape against several children. After a lot of media attention, many male teachers all over the nation reported to constantly having prove to parents and fellow female…

The feminist movement as a whole is very much against gendered norms about who should and shouldn't be a kindergarten teacher. Which feminist movements did you see fanning these particular flames?

3rd wave, whose actions betray their true goals: men as second class citizens.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#580

Post by mejari »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #407
evolve2017 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this has been talked about multiple times over - Damore did not have a line that states that women and/or minorities are bad engineers. He does, however, clearly state that Google's hiring standards had 'lowered the bar' for women and minorities. I think it's awfully charitable not to infer that he considers the women/minorities at Google (on average) to be inferior engineers. Still, it's true that he never s…

Do you understand what's happening here? Whether or not google "lowered the bar" (i.e. had distinct hiring criteria for men or women) is a fact and only a fact. It may be a true fact, or it may be a false fact. But it is not an opinion. But somehow it gets turned into "This means he thinks women are worse, therefore he's insulting women, therefore it's a hostile workplace, therefore he got fired." That reasoning is a…

You are completely incorrect. Whether or not Google did in reality lower the bar to hire more women is a matter of fact. That Damore felt that in order to meet the goal of hiring more women Google had to lower the bar is his _opinion_, and it is a telling opinion about how he thinks about the capabilities of women.

"You had to buy inferior wood to get enough to build this house. I don't think there's enough good wood to build the house, therefore in order to get enough you had to buy inferior wood."

The fact of the quality of the wood is separate from the opinion of the availability of quality wood.

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