Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble • Hacker News Board

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#181

Post by icebraining » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #89

GavinMcG wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The extra money would become meaningless because prices would adjust to accommodate it. That's not actually supported in the literature.

I mean, it is the case if UBI contributes to inflation, which it clearly would. Literature or no literature, if the money supply increases, prices will increase unless efficiency improves faster.

The lack of inflation following QE casts doubt on such a simplified model.

But in any case, you don't have to inflate to have UBI. Just tax money a bit when it gets distributed to shareholders.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#182

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:59 PM UTC

darod wrote: post #81

bsaunder wrote: post #51

This is the use case for universal basic income. Its largely not their fault for their current economic situation. They played by the rules. They worked hard. If we could only remove the "necessity" of a job and the puritan shame of unemployment to live a moderate life of meager means. People should be encouraged to contribute to society not to simply "get a job".

I think UBI would be unsustainable without additional investments in education. If you are going to be taking public monies, that time should be used to educate oneself or provide some form of public service.

[deleted]

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#183

Post by nostrademons » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:59 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #170

nostrademons wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be right - I think about what I'd need to do to switch careers now, at 36, and it's a lot harder than when I was 19. Luckily I have a bit of a cushion, which was built up over those years as a computer programmer, so I wouldn't go homeless or anything while retraining. Many other people are not so lucky. I wonder what sort of education would be necessary to bring that opportunity to everyone, though. I was lu…

Let's say everybody got the necessary education to follow your path. Can Silicon Valley absorb the 27 million unemployed or underemployed workers in the US?

I think this idea (not just you, it's been expressed by many on this thread) that it must be Silicon Valley or Google specifically that absorbs the 27 million unemployed or underemployed workers shows a remarkable lack of imagination.

What's likely to happen isn't that Google hires 27 million people. It's that Google hires 10,000 people, who learn the details of the new methods of production required in the information age. Some of those will quit (even though Google doesn't want them to) and found new businesses. Some of them will even leave Silicon Valley and go back to their hometowns or other cheaper areas, and bring the knowledge & culture back with them. They'll then hire other people, who will learn the skills & culture needed to thrive in the information age, and so on, until it's disseminated widely throughout society.

Instead of everyone moving to California, California will move to everyone.

My bewilderment is mostly at this avoidance of economic rationality. To me, the market is sending a very clear signal that certain ways of doing things - those that involve computers, and replacing human labor with them - are more efficient than the old ways of doing things, and that's why people who adopt them make lots of money. The logical thing to do is to adopt them too. Lots of people are not doing that, and assume that there must be something mystical or corrupt about how Silicon Valley makes its money.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#184

Post by droidist2 » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 10:01 PM UTC

wott wrote: post #119

sidlls wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people in tech, especially in the Bay Area, have never known anything but a quite comfortable middle class (or better) life. They're very much disconnected ("in a bubble") from what it's like to live a lower-class (which has an upper income much higher than the poverty level) life in this country. The disconnect between high-paid techies and the lower-class is in many respects far greater than between the b…

No matter how big money people make and how comfortable their way of life is, they always think themselves as lower-middle-class and claim they are on the verge of financial difficulties.

Isn't the same true on the other side? If you ask working class people they'll usually say they're middle class.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#185

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 10:03 PM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #159

tylerjwilk00 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're still not quite getting it. If people have to choose between going into debt from a finance charge or starving on the street with no roof over their head they will choose the former. It's not about financial education it's about hard choices of the underprivileged.

I'm not talking about starving on the street, I'm talking about everybody in US using credit cards for payments and repay. I'm talking about shops offering their own credit cards. You know when US people use their credit card? Every day. You know when Europeans use their credit card? When abroad. And our credit gets instantly paid by our normal bank account. For us, a credit card is the same as a debit card but with…

Using a credit card is not the same as going into debt to make your purchase. In the US, you can easily get 1% to 4% back from the credit card company by using your credit card, and so you actually save money by paying with your credit card. Whether or not you want to pay off the balance at the end of your credit card's billing cycle decides whether or not you are going into debt, but many, many people pay it off. It's also safer to use a credit card for purchases than a debit card, since your cash isn't touched and you can just call the credit card company to dispute a charge.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#186

Post by icebraining » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 10:03 PM UTC

vostok wrote: post #91

ganoushoreilly wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it was about that, it was about him being someone from outside the establishment that they perceive as being out of touch. I've still not met anyone that's pro trump and believes most of what he was promoting. Sadly the most common response I get is "I wasn't voting for Hillary, so I voted Trump". I truly believe these Americans feel they are are in desperate circumstances and someone from the outside t…

I feel like Trump is also pretty firmly part of the establishment. In my mind, the real reason people voted for him is that he said things that people were thinking. This seems to be something that nobody wants to admit.

This seems to be something that nobody wants to admit.

Lots of people have said that. Even Hillary Clinton - that's what the "deplorables" comment was all about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket_of_deplorables#Speech (both "halves" fit with what you're saying)

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#187

Post by ghaff » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 10:05 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #176

ghaff wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the problems with grocery stores specifically is that I buy a fair bit of stuff that isn't bar-coded, especially produce. I also guess that I'm not so much into sticking earphones in when I'm out and about. (And I also do a sort of weekly grocery shopping when I'm not traveling; no especially good delivery options in my area and not sure I would routinely use in any case.)

Funny; in more than one supermarket here, you're supposed to weigh the produce yourself using one of these[1] before getting to the register, even before the self-service checkout appeared. [1] https://www.tradebit.com/usr/stock-photos/pub/9002/623344.jp...

Self-service checkout in any form is pretty much a good reason for me to avoid a store/chain unless they were really compelling in some other dimension.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#188

Post by nitwit005 » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 10:09 PM UTC

It would be nice if "the problem" was simply that people lived in a bubble and didn't understand. That would be a relatively easily solvable problem, but this is not the case. Sure, people can be isolated from the experiences of others, but the overwhelming majority of us have friends and relatives working normal jobs.

A lot of empathy does exist. Empathy alone does not lower the rent, or cause those "good jobs" to reappear.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#189

Post by CaptSpify » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 10:09 PM UTC

vostok wrote: post #91

ganoushoreilly wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it was about that, it was about him being someone from outside the establishment that they perceive as being out of touch. I've still not met anyone that's pro trump and believes most of what he was promoting. Sadly the most common response I get is "I wasn't voting for Hillary, so I voted Trump". I truly believe these Americans feel they are are in desperate circumstances and someone from the outside t…

I feel like Trump is also pretty firmly part of the establishment. In my mind, the real reason people voted for him is that he said things that people were thinking. This seems to be something that nobody wants to admit.

> I feel like Trump is also pretty firmly part of the establishment.

I completely agree with you, but I think a lot of people still perceive him as being outside the establishment. And they voted based on that perception.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#190

Post by whoiskevin » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 10:24 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #132

nostrademons wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes an ordered ranking of people and of employers, a premise I reject. Google is one of several thousand employers that are both hiring and pay reasonably well. Most of the other ones will also fly you out and pay for relocation if they want you. At the same time I was interviewing with Google, there was even a 3-person startup that was willing to fly me out to SF to interview, except that I didn't really ca…

> Google is one of several thousand employers that are both hiring and pay reasonably well. I lived in Dallas for almost fifteen years. The vast majority of those companies ignored me even when I applied. Many of those same companies are now starting to beat my door down because I changed my location to New York. This industry seems to have a serious problem with geographic myopia. Just from your list, Facebook ignor…

Same here despite listing that I was willing to relocate on my own dime. Then I relocated took a job at Apple and every big name wanted to interview me. Got job offers at two other big tech names while I was in CA. until I worked in the valley I apparently wasn't smart enough despite 20 plus years experience outside CA. there is a bias. it is real and speaks badly of the valley.