Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble • Hacker News Board

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#121

Post by nandorsky » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 7:16 PM UTC

darod wrote: post #43

I wonder how long it will take for this thought to fade from Steve's mind once he returns to SV. It's easy for people come to these realizations after getting outside of their comfort zone but just as easily return to the status quo. I think one of the biggest myths about tech in general is that it's here to help people. It's really not. It's job is to remove barriers to make workflows more efficient, typically to th…

"I think one of the biggest myths about tech in general is that it's here to help people."

It does... if it didn't, it wouldn't exist. Tech is a net positive for society. You typed that on a machine that gives you access to the world's information in seconds at minimal cost. Efficiencies drive down costs which benefits society as a whole. Can you imagine how much your computer/phone would cost if the production of it wasn't automated?

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#122

Post by bloomca » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 7:16 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #102

jboggan wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not easy to uproot and move from an economically depressed area to an active metropolis. I've done it (Athens, GA to San Francisco in late 2012) and it was incredibly expensive and involved a large amount of personal credit use, cash assistance from family, and time. It was a huge stretch at the time for me to move across the country and break into a new industry, and I did it as a single man, willing and…

What I don't understand is why people don't use the time they have in the low cost-of-living area to develop the skills (via the Internet) that would make them attractive to employers in big cities? That was my approach - I lived at home with my parents after graduation, basically did nothing but program (both for work and after work), and after 3 years Google came knocking and paid for my move out to Silicon Valley.…

I believe you have a survivor's bias here – I have kind of the same track, I developed my initial skills while living with parents, being single and without having too much social interactions, so I was able to dedicate incredible amount of time to all this stuff.

But this is not always the case. Very often when you realize that you need to change something, you already work, and you have some obligations, so you have to keep up your work no matter what, and you might have not that much of energy in the evenings. Also, relationships can take a lot of energy from you as well, or you might just (surprise!) have another hobby, and you don't want to sacrifice it.

So, that's all can be broken as "not enough motivated", but seriously, does everybody want to change their life to become a top programmer? And this is even without mentioning that not everybody can develop skills (and create good-enough self branding to present it) to be able to be hired by Google, or other big corps, which will pay for your relocation.

The last point I want to say that it is very hard to develop yourself without understanding how -- a lot of people don't read HN, they think that people working in Google, FB, etc are some semigods, and people around them seem to agree about that -- it is like another bubble, where nobody knows how to actually get into this SV one.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#123

Post by wott » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 7:16 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #90

slackingoff2017 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI is welfare with a different name. The results will be the same. Some people will sit on their asses and never work a single day but the majority of the population would keep working. The extra money would become meaningless because prices would adjust to accommodate it. We have to keep in mind that you can't just create money and hand it out and make everyone rich. If everyone had 10x as much money prices would e…

> If we pillaged the top 1% and distributed their wealth evenly the entire rest of the population would get close to a 100% raise. That's how filthy rich the top 1% are. The problem with this, of course, is that the rich would simply leave. They are the most attractive to rob, and the best prepared to escape. In addition, "the 1%" is not an exclusive club; most people (currently) have a pretty good chance of entering…

> most people (currently) have a pretty good chance of entering the 1% at some point in their life

I beg your pardon?

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#124

Post by jacobush » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 7:21 PM UTC

cvsh wrote: post #105

losteric wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The root cause of most American problems is poor public education. We're still over-emphasizing passing grades over effectively growing new American citizens... Personal finance is rarely offered and never mandatory, yet we collectively bare the burden of financial ignorance. The same applies to other subjects like statistics or civics.

>We're still over-emphasizing passing grades over effectively growing new American citizens... 2/3rds of state legislatures are actively hostile to basic tenets of science, let alone the government teaching "effective American citizenship". We just recently legalized malpractice for financial advisors. The rules preventing them from screwing their clients out of their retirement savings were spun as hurting consumer…

Teaching terrorism, no doubt.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#125

Post by lkrubner » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

bmwe30is wrote: post #30

>Some are rooted, embedded in their communities; and some are trapped — because housing is unaffordable where the better paying jobs are. And the jobs that are high paying are not the jobs they built their lives on. There's some texture and nuance to this statement. I remember on NPR, they interviewed a lady whom mentioned similar sentiments; her and her husband had built a family, worked in the blue-collar industry…

This lacks context:

It's what other generations have done

Other generations had much higher real wages, and much less risk. During the 1930s and 1940s there was a huge movement of desperate farmers to California. But wages in California were good, and California went 50 years without a recession -- from the 1930s to the 1980s was one long continuous boom.

Going back further, consider the events described in Little House On The Prairie. Laura Ingalls Wilder's family faced ruin after locusts ate all the food that the family was growing. So her father went away for awhile and found work where he was paid $1 a day. And that was enough money to completely reboot their lives. Not only could he keep his whole family fed on that, he also had spare money to buy seed and thus plant a crop the next year.

High real wages are the reason why millions of people, including all 4 of my grand-parents, left Europe to come to the USA.

Male wages have been in decline since 1973. Family income increased till 1999 only because more women started to work. Family income has been in decline since 1999.

Movement and migration can not be be justified rationally in a world where wages are stagnant or falling.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#126

Post by nostrademons » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 7:34 PM UTC

bloomca wrote: post #122

nostrademons wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand is why people don't use the time they have in the low cost-of-living area to develop the skills (via the Internet) that would make them attractive to employers in big cities? That was my approach - I lived at home with my parents after graduation, basically did nothing but program (both for work and after work), and after 3 years Google came knocking and paid for my move out to Silicon Valley.…

I believe you have a survivor's bias here – I have kind of the same track, I developed my initial skills while living with parents, being single and without having too much social interactions, so I was able to dedicate incredible amount of time to all this stuff. But this is not always the case. Very often when you realize that you need to change something, you already work, and you have some obligations, so you hav…

You may be right - I think about what I'd need to do to switch careers now, at 36, and it's a lot harder than when I was 19. Luckily I have a bit of a cushion, which was built up over those years as a computer programmer, so I wouldn't go homeless or anything while retraining. Many other people are not so lucky.

I wonder what sort of education would be necessary to bring that opportunity to everyone, though. I was lucky first of all in that my high school really stressed learning to think for yourself and make your own choices, and second that I got an education in basic economics (supply & demand, compound interest, savings, and prices) from my dad at an early age. Most people don't get that. Maybe personal finance and a basic introduction to how the economy functions should be a required course in public education, though it's probably not in the interests of the people who set the curriculum to have a population that can think for themselves and look out for their own interests.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#127

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 7:38 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #104

losteric wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The root cause of most American problems is poor public education. We're still over-emphasizing passing grades over effectively growing new American citizens... Personal finance is rarely offered and never mandatory, yet we collectively bare the burden of financial ignorance. The same applies to other subjects like statistics or civics.

I didn't learn finance in Germany in school but we all knew that taking on massive debt is stupid. It's the advertising and easy access to consumer credit. Wage increases have been replaced by easier access to credit.

Germany is the other extreme though. Not sure if that is healthier.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#128

Post by lovich » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 7:39 PM UTC

hysan wrote: post #85

bmwe30is wrote: post #30

>Some are rooted, embedded in their communities; and some are trapped — because housing is unaffordable where the better paying jobs are. And the jobs that are high paying are not the jobs they built their lives on. There's some texture and nuance to this statement. I remember on NPR, they interviewed a lady whom mentioned similar sentiments; her and her husband had built a family, worked in the blue-collar industry…

For people who have lived in the same area for several years, moving means losing all of your political capital that you've built up in the form of: * votes / campaigning for your representatives * learning about the local laws and maybe even having voiced yourself at town halls to make real changes * all bonds you've made in your community which helps when wanting to make a push for local changes Moving means losing…

If everyone started living like the parent suggests then it would just increase the power disparity between the wealthy and everyone else. Only those wealthy enough to afford a home and be insulated from the need to follow employment opportunities would have any say in even local politics anymore

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#129

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 7:41 PM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #47

R_haterade wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That last part bothers me a lot. It seems a lot of people just don't want to move. Anecdotally I've moved nearly 6 times in the last 8 years. My parents have done the same. How do we build any kind of community with so little permanence? If we can't bond with our neighbors, we become these empty, atomized husks floating from one economic opportunity to another. Put another way, how can a village raise a child if the…

Isn't that what Facebook and the like are for? I'm being serious here. Since 2002 I have moved 5 times for work: Colorado, Texas, Guam, Maryland and now I'm in Virginia. My family is spread around Texas. I mostly keep up with the people I made friends with through the years and my family on FB, Twitter etc...phone and then rarely on email. The idea of a "local" community you have your whole life is antiquated - if it…

[deleted]

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#130

Post by s_kilk » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 7:43 PM UTC

darod wrote: post #43

I wonder how long it will take for this thought to fade from Steve's mind once he returns to SV. It's easy for people come to these realizations after getting outside of their comfort zone but just as easily return to the status quo. I think one of the biggest myths about tech in general is that it's here to help people. It's really not. It's job is to remove barriers to make workflows more efficient, typically to th…

> It's job is to remove barriers to make workflows more efficient, typically to the detriment of people, as they generally are that barrier.

Another way of putting this is that tech is organised solely to meet the needs of the Capital class and no-one else.