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Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

nytimes.com

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Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#241

Post by pgeorgi »

luckydude wrote: post #192
Shank wrote: post #8

Honestly, I think he made the right move just from a PR perspective. His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. The author of the manifesto caused Google a PR disaster and created a huge state of internal conflict, valid or not. The shareholders are probably really happy that their CEO removed a person who managed to get Google so much bad press in so little time. This is the reali…

No, the right move would have been to take Damore aside, say "dude, you stirred up a mess. You aren't wrong but the mess is a PR disaster. How about we hand you a big pile of money, you go find your next job elsewhere, and we agree not to throw mud at each other?" I can see not doing that when you are cash poor but Google is paying engineers as much as $600K/year in total comp, they could have landed $10M on Damore a…

> they could have landed $10M on Damore and never noticed it.

Word would get around. Followed by many manifestos worth $10M.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#242

Post by humanrebar »

ebola1717 wrote: post #61
endorphone wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firing has been a PR disaster, and amplified and exaggerated the effect of this issue (not to mention that it drew attention to other factors, like Google's institutional ageism). And while I don't want to diagnose over the internet, it seems like it's attacking someone on the spectrum for traits of being on the spectrum. By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, and doubled down on this discussion.…

Only on the internet. I really don't think anyone in the real world is paying that much attention, and besides Brooks, I haven't seen many mainstream writers come out against the firing.

What do you mean by mainstream?

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#243

Post by Tasboo »

lisper wrote: post #33

The primary thesis of Damore's memo [1] was not that women are biologically unsuited to STEM careers. The primary thesis was that, at Google, you cannot even advance the hypothesis that biology might be a factor without putting your career at risk. Ironically, by firing Damore, Pichai proved him correct. EDIT: if you doubt this, just look at the document's title and TL;DR section. [1] https://assets.documentcloud.org…

By advancing the hypothesis that it might be a factor, without a need to do so, it's always going to be seen as advocating for it, even if he says he's not.

For example, a host on certain news channel might say, "Is Obama secretly a Muslim? I'm not saying that he is, but why can't we ask the question?"

It's easy to see why people would get upset by that comment (for multiple reasons). The fact that he says he isn't saying that doesn't matter, because he effectively just did.

If he had just limited the paper to inclusiveness as a conservative in a left leaning culture, without dragging the whole women inequality thing into the matter, it probably wouldn't have been meet with such a backlash.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#244

Post by ebola1717 »

cookiecaper wrote: post #195
humanrebar wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture issues and sits in some sort of bubble. > This is the reality of business. Is it? If that's true, we need to be much more aggressive about corporate consolidation because the only way to make room for diversity of opinion is to make sure that there's diversity…

>No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture issues and sits in some sort of bubble. We're missing a large component of the discussion when we pretend that the content of the letter is the principal issue here. The thing the C-levels are thinking about is liability, because that represents the most direct threat to the company. Allowing Damore to remain on payroll could be interprete…

So... you don't like equal protection laws? I'm like really struggling to figure out the alternative interpretation here.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#245

Post by mwytock »

chongli wrote: post #238
mwytock wrote: post #135

A lot of people on "our side" did a bad job of simply refuting the argument presented. Its straightforward to do in one sentence: "While there may be scientific evidence of differences between men and women, using these differences to conclude that women are biologically less inclined to engineering is a gross leap in reasoning that is not at all supported by the facts." Then you can go on and explain why for histori…

"While there may be scientific evidence of differences between men and women, using these differences to conclude that women are biologically less inclined to engineering is a gross leap in reasoning that is not at all supported by the facts." That is not true. The facts support the exact opposite conclusion: that prenatal exposure to androgens orients a person toward things/systems rather than people. [0] [0] https:…

I'm not sure what you are arguing, can you be more explicit? You're saying that you agree with the fundamental point of the memo?

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#246

Post by renaudg »

GreaterFool wrote: post #144
vkou wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firing was necessary, because not firing someone who creates a hostile working environment opens you to lawsuits from every single other person employed in your company. [1] Anyone who's taken training on sexual harassment would understand this. His essay is not scientific, or evidence-based. It's ten pages of micro-facts, followed by his biases or misunderstands, followed by enormous leaps of logic to macro-conc…

From the Quora post you've linked: > argues that cognitive sex differences influence performance in software engineering, but presents no supporting evidence This is completely made up

And in more than one way too : 1) he didn't discuss "performance" but "affinity" 2) there was supporting evidence linked, before Gizmodo conveniently stripped it away.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#248

Post by mwytock »

jamesrcole wrote: post #225
mwytock wrote: post #135

A lot of people on "our side" did a bad job of simply refuting the argument presented. Its straightforward to do in one sentence: "While there may be scientific evidence of differences between men and women, using these differences to conclude that women are biologically less inclined to engineering is a gross leap in reasoning that is not at all supported by the facts." Then you can go on and explain why for histori…

I'm all for people arguing against it, but your 'one sentence' doesn't argue the point at all, it just asserts it. It literally just asserts that it "is a gross leap in reasoning that is not at all supported by the facts". I'm all for someone arguing for the points in that quoted fragment, but you can't claim that they're true just because you've said them.

You're right, my one sentence is just trying to explain the basic point to people who may not get it. Its not trying to lay out a complete thesis in support. I'm not sure if thats a necessary exercise, especially for the CEO.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#249

Post by emerged »

ghaff wrote: post #221
endorphone wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firing has been a PR disaster, and amplified and exaggerated the effect of this issue (not to mention that it drew attention to other factors, like Google's institutional ageism). And while I don't want to diagnose over the internet, it seems like it's attacking someone on the spectrum for traits of being on the spectrum. By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, and doubled down on this discussion.…

It ends the news cycle. Most people outside the bubble haven't even heard of this and those who have will forget about it by next week. Right or wrong, it was the path of least resistance for Google going forward.

I disagree -- IMO, the only hope in this case to "end the news cycle" would've been to walk a very delicate line where Google's position in the debate was made known, but nobody was dramatically fired in the process.

Instead, Google's leadership decided to take an ideological stance with relatively little regard to immediate PR. The result is further churning and an intensified reaction of the public and media.

This is either a good or a bad thing, depending on a person's perspective. But surely it's a reaction which will perpetuate the intensity of drama.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#250

Post by bllguo »

bjl wrote: post #152
Danihan wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand that statement.. or why you would agree with it. The auther of the memo was attempting to present facts. Why wouldn't I completely agree with facts that are true? Especially in this case, when most cognitive scientists seem to agree upon the facts as presented? [1] It really doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with facts... they are still reality, regardless. And I see very, very few people arg…

The papers he cited are still extremely controversial, they aren't settled science at all. The rest of his sources were Wikipedia links.

Really? Interested in hearing more. To me a big point of his is that on average, there are innate differences between the sexes, which policy should acknowledge. Which, afaik, is scientific consensus. Yet not a single person I've read that criticizes the memo will acknowledge this.
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