Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O • Hacker News Board

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#221

Post by ghaff » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:27 PM UTC

endorphone wrote: post #20

Shank wrote: post #8

Honestly, I think he made the right move just from a PR perspective. His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. The author of the manifesto caused Google a PR disaster and created a huge state of internal conflict, valid or not. The shareholders are probably really happy that their CEO removed a person who managed to get Google so much bad press in so little time. This is the reali…

The firing has been a PR disaster, and amplified and exaggerated the effect of this issue (not to mention that it drew attention to other factors, like Google's institutional ageism). And while I don't want to diagnose over the internet, it seems like it's attacking someone on the spectrum for traits of being on the spectrum. By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, and doubled down on this discussion.…

It ends the news cycle. Most people outside the bubble haven't even heard of this and those who have will forget about it by next week. Right or wrong, it was the path of least resistance for Google going forward.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#222

Post by taysic » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:27 PM UTC

Ajedi32 wrote: post #213

taysic wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By not firing him, the same thing would have happened. Except now that vocal group would be Google employees too who feel uncomfortable at their workplace. Anti-science way? Do you realize how subjective this is and how impossible it is to prove that today there are no other influences at play than biology? And that we've maxed on the number of woman in this field and we're now at an equilibrium determined by biology…

> Anti-science way? Do you realize how subjective this is and how impossible it is to prove that today there are no other influences at play than biology? First of all, the original memo said nothing of the sort. Secondly, I'm pretty sure GP is not saying the reaction to this memo is anti-science merely because it opposes the position taken in the memo. Rather, it's anti-science because they threw all rational debate…

Why even bother mentioning biology then if there are other influences more important and relevant? It seemed very emphasized.

They did not fire him because they didn't believe in the studies he linked. Obviously that's very much mischaracterizing things. This is a complicated issue with ample studies to link to from both sides. And anyway, I truly question studies on such broad topics.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#223

Post by humanrebar » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:28 PM UTC

harichinnan wrote: post #199

endorphone wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are women working at Google who do not need to be reminded of the genetic and biologic differences they have from their cishet male counterparts. I'm a white male. I know that the average Asian has a higher IQ than the average white man. This means positively nothing when comparing me with a given Asian, however. That is the root of this discussion that so many so profoundly miss. The average Google male is not…

Please visit "Asia". Don't go to Japan or South Korea or one of the city states. Go to India or China or somewhere in middle east. I don't think there are biological differences that would make people of the largest continent more smarter than another group.

There are selection effects in place when immigration enters the picture.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#224

Post by thomasahle » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:29 PM UTC

zellyn wrote: post #29

It seems disingenuous not to mention the many debunkings of the memo's Science by Scientists. For example: https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...

This is by far the best reply to the memo I have seen. I wish more replies were like this.

I fear some people in the left and center don't want to honor the memo with a serious reply, and that this gets picked up by the right as inability to do so.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#225

Post by jamesrcole » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:30 PM UTC

mwytock wrote: post #135

A lot of people on "our side" did a bad job of simply refuting the argument presented. Its straightforward to do in one sentence: "While there may be scientific evidence of differences between men and women, using these differences to conclude that women are biologically less inclined to engineering is a gross leap in reasoning that is not at all supported by the facts." Then you can go on and explain why for histori…

I'm all for people arguing against it, but your 'one sentence' doesn't argue the point at all, it just asserts it. It literally just asserts that it "is a gross leap in reasoning that is not at all supported by the facts". I'm all for someone arguing for the points in that quoted fragment, but you can't claim that they're true just because you've said them.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#226

Post by ghaff » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:30 PM UTC

WalterSear wrote: post #116

agentultra wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, To a small, vocal group. > By doing it in an anti-science, anti-evidence way There were good reasons for doing it that had nothing to do with science or evidence. There are women working at Google who do not need to be reminded of the genetic and biologic differences they have from their cishet male counterparts. If Damon had issues with the policies at Google…

He didn't circulate one. He sent it to a mailing list which purported to be a safe place for open, honest sharing of opinions regarding diversity and hiring.

Anyone who is willing to bet their job on a controversial posting about company policy to a broad company mailing list staying internal either doesn't mind being fired or is an idiot.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#227

Post by DanBC » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:30 PM UTC

lobotryas wrote: post #212

EduardoBautista wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would go ahead and say because men are just not interested in those careers as much as women. That's the whole point. And that is fine.

Exactly. No one's worried that we have too few female coal miners or garbage collectors. These are physically demanding, not prestigious and often low-paying jobs. Hell, no one's worried that we have too few female oil rig workers and these ARE (in my understanding) high paying jobs. But STEM? That's somehow different.

> Exactly. No one's worried that we have too few female coal miners

> Hell, no one's worried that we have too few female oil rig workers

There are programmes to increase the numbers of women in both those industries.

There's news media coverage of it: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ellevate/2016/12/07/the-energy-...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-business/11620315/Bu...

There's research on it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4279861/

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#228

Post by Danihan » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

teton_ferb wrote: post #214

Steve jobs would have fired an Apple employee for staring at him for too long in the elevator and the press would have written fawning articles about how decisive Steve is, how secretive Apple is, and how much Apple employees fear Steve. Take any other industry: A friend of mine working for a management consulting firm was fired for losing a presentation and making a partner look bad because the company supplied lapt…

Steve Jobs didn't pretend to be a nice guy / white knight, so it wasn't hypocritical.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#229

Post by where_do_i_live » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #187

jressey wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No matter what he intended the thesis to be, that thing was just a bunch of dog whistles that sounded an awful lot like ignorant alt-right bullshit to me.

And he basically confirmed it by doing his first interview with Stefan Molyneux.

The memo appears to be based on actual real science that seems to be the consensus.

However, the author appears to be completely tone deaf and extremely socially awkward - he has very poor communication skills. And lacking the understanding that there is a current culture war going on - to allow himself to be taken as a champion of some of those groups seems to show he is oblivious to the greater social/political discussion out there.

It does not help his argument to be the white knight for the _actual_ misogynists and racists.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#230

Post by vanattab » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #109

the_common_man wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honestly, I think he made the right move just from a PR perspective The person who posted their thoughts did so in a _closed_ mailing list that was intentionally setup to discuss all this. The document was leaked. At best, he deserved a reprimand. Firing him makes it clear that there is no room for alternate thoughts in Google other than the ultra-progressive view point.

One thing I do not get is why was the (original) memo written in "Google's voice" rather than stated as a personal point of view. Who, except maybe Sundar Pichai and the head of HR, has a right to talk for the company as a whole?

I don't think it was written in Google's voice. It was written in the voice of a young likely somewhat autistic engineer talking to his colleagues on an message board designed for discussing the topic of his memo. Then the media/Pichai sacrificed him on the alter of political correctness/profit.