Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O • Hacker News Board

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#151

Post by bduerst » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

bhouston wrote: post #101

rednerrus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was your impression?

Documents filled with political hot buttons screw up people's emotions and they can not process such documents rationally or in a balanced fashion, many people see only what offends them or what they want to defend. It is just screwed up...

Yep, it even rambles about the failure of Marxist communism at one point. It's a rant with cherry picked evidence, but people find something it in to confirm their beliefs and try to defend/attack it.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#152

Post by bjl » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

Danihan wrote: post #104

chubot wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. Here is the only intelligent thing I've read about this debacle: To me, if you read it and are completely outraged or uniformly in favor, then you are part of the problem. http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/07/opinions/google-employee-manif...

I don't understand that statement.. or why you would agree with it. The auther of the memo was attempting to present facts. Why wouldn't I completely agree with facts that are true? Especially in this case, when most cognitive scientists seem to agree upon the facts as presented? [1] It really doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with facts... they are still reality, regardless. And I see very, very few people arg…

The papers he cited are still extremely controversial, they aren't settled science at all. The rest of his sources were Wikipedia links.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#153

Post by jressey » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #33

The primary thesis of Damore's memo [1] was not that women are biologically unsuited to STEM careers. The primary thesis was that, at Google, you cannot even advance the hypothesis that biology might be a factor without putting your career at risk. Ironically, by firing Damore, Pichai proved him correct. EDIT: if you doubt this, just look at the document's title and TL;DR section. [1] https://assets.documentcloud.org…

No matter what he intended the thesis to be, that thing was just a bunch of dog whistles that sounded an awful lot like ignorant alt-right bullshit to me.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#154

Post by vkou » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

peoplewindow wrote: post #125

vkou wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are trying to improve working conditions, and in doing so creating a hostile working environment, your employer is obligated to fire you. If they don't, they can be sued by other employees. And let me tell you, while you may not feel that this memo has created a hostile working environment, a lot of other people do. Google would drown in lawsuits if they let him stay on.

But would such lawsuits succeed? I don't see how you can argue that a single guy who isn't in management writing a memo creates a "hostile work environment". Most of the people complaining wouldn't even be working with him at all. They can file lawsuits but would they hold water? After all, management could just tell the lawsuit filers to be more tolerant of others: it's not like Damore was attacking individuals. So…

> I don't see how you can argue that a single guy who isn't in management writing a memo creates a "hostile work environment".

Employment law makes it very clear that person creating a hostile work environment doesn't have to be a manager. They can be a co-worker, a client, or a contractor.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#155

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

Shank wrote: post #8

Honestly, I think he made the right move just from a PR perspective. His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. The author of the manifesto caused Google a PR disaster and created a huge state of internal conflict, valid or not. The shareholders are probably really happy that their CEO removed a person who managed to get Google so much bad press in so little time. This is the reali…

[deleted]

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#156

Post by Overtonwindow » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:09 PM UTC

peoplewindow wrote: post #77

I am minded to agree. And that's a shame, because Pichai has done good things for Chrome and Android when he was leading those. The article doesn't really touch on Pichai's biggest mistakes here. Mistake one: Damore's memo alleged discrimination, both against men and conservatives. Gender and political affiliation are both protected classes in California and they just fired him for whistleblowing. He has now filed a…

This. An excellent deconstruction of the issue. A culture of silencing views a minority does not agree with for the sake of avoiding a mob has created a mob of its own against all reason.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#157

Post by ocdtrekkie » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:09 PM UTC

zellyn wrote: post #131

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also read several supporting takes by scientists in related fields as well. The statements Damore made are indeed supported by some studies, and science being science, there are studies which conflict it as well. Pretending 'science' supports one political view or another is the sort of thing that got us in this mess in the first place. I think if we're going to avoid being disingenuous, we need to recognize tha…

> Pretending 'science' supports one political view or another is the sort of thing that got us in this mess in the first place. I agree. That's my point. The editorial mentions only Scientists who agree with Damore's Science, which paints an inaccurate picture.

Ah, that's fair. I didn't adequately read the context in your original comment.

EDIT: (As a note, I love clarifying comments, and wish rate limiting on HN didn't force me to pick and choose where I do so. I definitely misread the original, and downvoted it, but after seeing the clarification, and re-reading, I changed my vote on the original to an upvote, as well as upvoting the clarifying comment. Sometimes I feel like the HN lean against an extended discussion between two parties can be a detriment.)

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#158

Post by humanrebar » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:09 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #27

EduardoBautista wrote: post #12

Convincing women to focus on a career in STEM is telling them that their choices for careers in nursing, teaching, and any other career dominated by women are wrong choices. I don't believe that, they are essential to our society and are arguably more important than helping create better ads at Google and Facebook.

That's not the argument being made by advocates for women in STEM. The mission (I among one of many adherents to it) is to open pathways in STEM up to women who are choosing not to pursue it because of socioeconomic blockers. Blockers such as this guy. Anyway, the real position being pushed by Women in Tech/STEM movements is that anyone can/should be free to work in any career and not expect e.g. pay differences and…

> Blockers such as this guy.

Please elaborate on this. How is he blocking anyone?

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#159

Post by s73ver » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:09 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #33

The primary thesis of Damore's memo [1] was not that women are biologically unsuited to STEM careers. The primary thesis was that, at Google, you cannot even advance the hypothesis that biology might be a factor without putting your career at risk. Ironically, by firing Damore, Pichai proved him correct. EDIT: if you doubt this, just look at the document's title and TL;DR section. [1] https://assets.documentcloud.org…

Both of those theses are quite sexist, and no, neither one is appropriate for discussion in the workplace. Especially a workplace that wishes to appear as welcoming for all, not just conservative white men.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#160

Post by greendesk » Fri, Aug 11, 2017, 4:09 PM UTC

rednerrus wrote: post #67

greendesk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read James' document. I did not have the impression that this is his thesis.

What was your impression?

I was left with the impression he wants the introduction of a quota for sympathizers for a political organization. My takeaway was that he wants to work with people who are officially representing political parties.

Maybe it is that I have lived in a country where carrying party cards to work was a step in professional life. But the point that stuck to me was painting the situation along political spectrum.