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Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

nytimes.com

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Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#161

Post by cocktailpeanuts »

guelo wrote: post #93
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #25

Wow, I'd never imagine to read this piece in NY Times.

Maybe you have unfounded biases against the NYT based on the propaganda outlets you get your information from.

I agree with parent based on my own experience, and I'm sure parent bases his/her comment based on experience too.

I have been a NYTimes reader for a while and still read some of their less political articles, but when it comes to political pieces I stay away from them because I get nothing new, most of their articles are obviously left biased (For the record, I am NOT right wing. I just appreciate unbiased journalism and NYT has been failing me)

If you think NYT being left is based on some untrue propaganda by right tilting media websites, then you're the one who's mistaken, because as I said, I'm not right wing and I don't even read any right wing media.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#162

Post by Ajedi32 »

vkou wrote: post #43
endorphone wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firing has been a PR disaster, and amplified and exaggerated the effect of this issue (not to mention that it drew attention to other factors, like Google's institutional ageism). And while I don't want to diagnose over the internet, it seems like it's attacking someone on the spectrum for traits of being on the spectrum. By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, and doubled down on this discussion.…

The firing was necessary, because not firing someone who creates a hostile working environment opens you to lawsuits from every single other person employed in your company. [1] Anyone who's taken training on sexual harassment would understand this. His essay is not scientific, or evidence-based. It's ten pages of micro-facts, followed by his biases or misunderstands, followed by enormous leaps of logic to macro-conc…

> It wouldn't pass as a bloody undergrad essay.

At least a few psychology professors [seem to disagree with that assessment][1]:

> Graded fairly, his memo would get at least an A- in any masters’ level psychology course. It is consistent with the scientific state of the art on sex differences.

I'm sure you can probably find lot of opinions on both sides of the debate though, and that's fine. As the memo stated:

> Of course, I may be biased and only see evidence that supports my viewpoint. In terms of political biases, I consider myself a classical liberal and strongly value individualism and reason. I'd be very happy to discuss any of the document further and provide more citations

Instead of "discussing the document further" though, they fired him.

[1]: http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-...

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#163

Post by godd2 »

vkou wrote: post #99
Amezarak wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legal definitions of a hostile work environment is not simply based on how something makes you feel. It is very unlikely a hostile work environment suit for not firing Damore based on this memo would win, though of course Google might choose to settle.

> The legal definitions of a hostile work environment is not simply based on how something makes you feel. No, but the the entire point of that essay was to advance the idea that women are less successful because of their biology. [1] > It is very unlikely a hostile work environment for not firing him based on this memo would win, though of course Google might choose to settle. Any employment lawyers want to chime in…

> No, but the the entire point of that essay was to advance the idea that women are less successful because of their biology

He never claimed that the women in tech are worse at tech than the men in tech. He just claimed that there would be fewer of them.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#164

Post by KirinDave »

And once again, the characterization of "allowing the debate" means one thing for James (why, he "cited studies") and another for everyone else (they are an angry mob). The most telling bias in this piece is that characterization.

Perhaps is James had not hamfistedly "cited" population research (as Brooks suggests) but then given very specific personal-level fixes (e.g., pair programming , suggestions of "pipeline" fixes, etc) he would not have cast quite so much doubt over his intent.

What's also lost in this summary is one of the most important points: long term exposure to stereotypes has a powerful influence on people (many references of varying quality here: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/resources/women-m...). By embracing them, we actually create self-fulfilling prophecies.

These prophecies may be based on a statistical mean, but what's lost in that simple numerical distillation is what harm befalls even modest outliers to the distribution. Stereotypes which may seem obvious and unimportant to 3/4 of a population may be a crushing burden and source of relentless stress to the remaining quarter.

It's interesting how many of my peers fought to liberate themselves from stereotypes of "weakness" and "inferiority" that were tied around them as smart teenagers. But when it comes time to recognize the harm in these stereotypes to outliers in a other group, they appeal to the same logic that oppressed them. One might argue that these traits are adopted defense mechanisms well-impressed by abuse. I'm not sure that justifies them, though.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#165

Post by jamesrcole »

plinkplonk wrote: post #110

Sundar Pichai does seem to be a little off balance and a bit out of his depth. That said, why should he resign? In the overall scheme of things, this isn't much of a crisis. If this were the standard to fire CEOs by not many companies would have CEOs left.

I think that firing sets a very dangerous precedent. I think it was wrong and it's important that there are consequences to disincentivise such behaviour in the future. (Obviously, there's lots of differing opinions on this)

I'm not sure whether I think that means he should resign, though.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#167

Post by s73ver »

lisper wrote: post #140
greendesk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read James' document. I did not have the impression that this is his thesis.

Then you should read it again. Focus on the title and the bullet points in the TL;DR section.

This idea that one can only disagree with it because they haven't read it is extremely uncivil, and does nothing but attempt to shut down the discussion here.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#169

Post by busterarm »

EduardoBautista wrote: post #68
pinaceae wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why not encourage men to pursue careers in nursing and teaching?

I would go ahead and say because men are just not interested in those careers as much as women. That's the whole point. And that is fine.

If you talk to men who worked as primary school teachers (within the last 20 years) and then changed careers, you'll hear a lot of interesting stories of discrimination.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#170

Post by tomp »

endorphone wrote: post #142
agentultra wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, To a small, vocal group. > By doing it in an anti-science, anti-evidence way There were good reasons for doing it that had nothing to do with science or evidence. There are women working at Google who do not need to be reminded of the genetic and biologic differences they have from their cishet male counterparts. If Damon had issues with the policies at Google…

There are women working at Google who do not need to be reminded of the genetic and biologic differences they have from their cishet male counterparts. I'm a white male. I know that the average Asian has a higher IQ than the average white man. This means positively nothing when comparing me with a given Asian, however. That is the root of this discussion that so many so profoundly miss. The average Google male is not…

> I know that the average Asian has a higher IQ than the average white man.

How can you be sure that it's the average Asia, as opposed to the average Asian in the US? IMO a better example would be to use Ashkenazi Jews... or are they too white to count?

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