Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 507 posts

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#131

Post by zellyn »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #90
zellyn wrote: post #29

It seems disingenuous not to mention the many debunkings of the memo's Science by Scientists. For example: https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...

I've also read several supporting takes by scientists in related fields as well. The statements Damore made are indeed supported by some studies, and science being science, there are studies which conflict it as well. Pretending 'science' supports one political view or another is the sort of thing that got us in this mess in the first place. I think if we're going to avoid being disingenuous, we need to recognize tha…

> Pretending 'science' supports one political view or another is the sort of thing that got us in this mess in the first place.

I agree. That's my point. The editorial mentions only Scientists who agree with Damore's Science, which paints an inaccurate picture.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#132

Post by lisper »

vkou wrote: post #80
lisper wrote: post #33

The primary thesis of Damore's memo [1] was not that women are biologically unsuited to STEM careers. The primary thesis was that, at Google, you cannot even advance the hypothesis that biology might be a factor without putting your career at risk. Ironically, by firing Damore, Pichai proved him correct. EDIT: if you doubt this, just look at the document's title and TL;DR section. [1] https://assets.documentcloud.org…

No, his thesis was that the gender gap can be explained by biology. Verbatim, from the manifesto: "For the rest of this document, I’ll concentrate on the extreme stance that all differences in outcome are due to differential treatment and the authoritarian element that’s required to actually discriminate to create equal representation." The way he explains it with biology is that he rattles off a bunch of micro-facts…

> Verbatim, from the manifesto:

That's not his thesis; that's an example he's chosen to support his thesis.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#133

Post by hrktb »

EduardoBautista wrote: post #68
pinaceae wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why not encourage men to pursue careers in nursing and teaching?

I would go ahead and say because men are just not interested in those careers as much as women. That's the whole point. And that is fine.

There were more men in these roles when it was more respected and well paid. As the relative wages and notarity declined, men started targetting ‘higher jobs’

For instance these are the numbers for teachers for the last decades: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_209.10.a...

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#134

Post by ocdtrekkie »

agentultra wrote: post #89
endorphone wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firing has been a PR disaster, and amplified and exaggerated the effect of this issue (not to mention that it drew attention to other factors, like Google's institutional ageism). And while I don't want to diagnose over the internet, it seems like it's attacking someone on the spectrum for traits of being on the spectrum. By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, and doubled down on this discussion.…

> By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, To a small, vocal group. > By doing it in an anti-science, anti-evidence way There were good reasons for doing it that had nothing to do with science or evidence. There are women working at Google who do not need to be reminded of the genetic and biologic differences they have from their cishet male counterparts. If Damon had issues with the policies at Google…

I would argue that if a 'small, vocal group' likely had a significant hand in electing Donald Trump, we should stop trying to minimize it by suggesting it is 'small'. Either because it's larger than you think, or because it has influence that outscales it's membership severalfold.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#135

Post by mwytock »

A lot of people on "our side" did a bad job of simply refuting the argument presented. Its straightforward to do in one sentence:

"While there may be scientific evidence of differences between men and women, using these differences to conclude that women are biologically less inclined to engineering is a gross leap in reasoning that is not at all supported by the facts."

Then you can go on and explain why for historical and societal reasons putting forth this weak theory is highly offensive and damaging to a large group of people.

Of course, many feel that you shouldn't _have_ to explain this to people, but unfortunately in todays environment, you do!

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#136

Post by [deleted] »

whorleater wrote: post #78
endorphone wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firing has been a PR disaster, and amplified and exaggerated the effect of this issue (not to mention that it drew attention to other factors, like Google's institutional ageism). And while I don't want to diagnose over the internet, it seems like it's attacking someone on the spectrum for traits of being on the spectrum. By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, and doubled down on this discussion.…

> The firing has been a PR disaster In the sense that it's an argument both sides want to have. The left want to argue for better workplace treatment of women, while the right want to argue for speech without social repercussions.

[deleted]

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#137

Post by s73ver »

humanrebar wrote: post #83
Shank wrote: post #8

Honestly, I think he made the right move just from a PR perspective. His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. The author of the manifesto caused Google a PR disaster and created a huge state of internal conflict, valid or not. The shareholders are probably really happy that their CEO removed a person who managed to get Google so much bad press in so little time. This is the reali…

> His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture issues and sits in some sort of bubble. > This is the reality of business. Is it? If that's true, we need to be much more aggressive about corporate consolidation because the only way to make room for diversity of opinion is to make sure that there's diversity…

"No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture issues and sits in some sort of bubble."

Google had to decide which they value more: Demore's manifesto, or the contributions of a third of their workforce.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#138

Post by Amezarak »

Tasboo wrote: post #120
Amezarak wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally, what Damore did is probably a 'concerted protected activity' (his stated goal is to take actions that improve working conditions by making the job less stressful, increase diversity, etc) covered by the NLRB, and thus Google quite possibly broke the law in firing him for the memo. That's not protecting the company. EDIT: I forgot to add that from the coverage I've seen, there are also claims that Google…

Damore can claim he was protecting the company, but if the effect of what he said in his memo is causing the opposite of that, then it can be a fire-able offense, regardless of what he said he was trying to do.

It's not about whether Damore was trying to protect the company, it's about whether Damore was communicating with his coworkers about ways to improve working conditions. It is illegal to fire someone for doing so. Damore presents several ideas about improving working conditions, claiming this would also increase diversity. If I was paranoid I'd say he wrote the memo with the possibility of being illegally fired in mind, because it appears to have been written carefully with that angle in mind.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#139

Post by richardknop »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #53
endorphone wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firing has been a PR disaster, and amplified and exaggerated the effect of this issue (not to mention that it drew attention to other factors, like Google's institutional ageism). And while I don't want to diagnose over the internet, it seems like it's attacking someone on the spectrum for traits of being on the spectrum. By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, and doubled down on this discussion.…

By and large the people outraged about this are the crazy men's rights, reactionary, Trumpist, Alex Jones mob that have been looking for things like this to be outraged for the past 30 years. Everyone wants to be a victim. Damore isn't a victim of anything but bad judgment. If he's hero of the mob, so what.

Some people who are outraged by this are people who are afraid to live in a society where you can be fired and your career ruined for having a political opinion (not even controversial one).

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#140

Post by lisper »

greendesk wrote: post #50
lisper wrote: post #33

The primary thesis of Damore's memo [1] was not that women are biologically unsuited to STEM careers. The primary thesis was that, at Google, you cannot even advance the hypothesis that biology might be a factor without putting your career at risk. Ironically, by firing Damore, Pichai proved him correct. EDIT: if you doubt this, just look at the document's title and TL;DR section. [1] https://assets.documentcloud.org…

I read James' document. I did not have the impression that this is his thesis.

Then you should read it again. Focus on the title and the bullet points in the TL;DR section.
Post reply on HN