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Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

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Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#241

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

therebedragons wrote: post #181
KirinDave wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? What positive connotation could be drawn from it?

> What positive connotation could be drawn from it? IMHO that is the wrong question. Connotations aren't something anyone can argue for or against - one can have bad connotations for all sorts of words. Actual example: my ex hated the word "negotiate" in any personal discussion as she saw negotiations as something where you tried to screw the other person over (she was a lawyer). This was to the point where she refus…

The "different = inferior argument" is strongly implied.

If you accept the premise that there's such a thing as a male-dominated work culture with stereotypically male values, then attitudes and actions that match those values are considered better ("normative") by default.

Anyone who has different requirements or interests will always be considered an outsider who will to have allowances made for them while receiving special treatment.

This would also be true of hypothetical female-dominated cultures with stereotypical female values where men would be considered the inferior outsiders who need special treatment. (Do such cultures exist? At work - sometimes, but not often. Outside of work - perhaps.)

The topic is an unholy mess because there are so many implications and assumptions on both sides, and so much outright ranting and bullying too, that useful debate is practically impossible.

My view is that corporate culture isn't stereotypically "male" so much as stereotypically totalitarian. More women won't change that. It might rein in some of the more obvious abuses, while running the risk of replacing them with some new ones.

But real economic and political freedom could only come from equal opportunity at a scale that most (tacitly neoliberal) feminists seem uninterested in.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#242

Post by pink_duck »

michaelchisari wrote: post #195
generic_user wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the skills that you listed only start to really matter if you try to move into a management position. No company or project wants rank and file programmers (which is the vast majority of any project) who think there also managers and act as such. Even if you have those skill your job is to focus on your tasks and solve your very specific problems, not the big picture and what everyone else is doing.

I emphatically disagree. All of those skills are necessary to be a strong team member, and thinking that only management requires them is to move into territory where programming as a trade is in need of micro-management and social babysitting by a managerial class. I've been in plenty of teams that were extremely flat exactly because the programmers in those teams were all highly skilled in those areas.

I have just joined the workforce after uni, and it has never been more clear to me that what you're saying about communication and "people skills" is correct. Almost all of the issues that the company that I work for have are based on lack of communication skills, lack of empathy, too much ego etc.

It reminds me of what a coed wrote to me once about the difference between a good developer, and two ok ones.

"2 Basically, even if you're higher ranked intellectually speaking and do more work than the average worker alone, two people that can perform adequately and that work together will outperform you.

Cooperation is key, and people need to be trained to do better handle that part of the job. Not just produce code.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#243

Post by minipci1321 »

Const-me wrote: post #113

IMO the best comment from there: Giulio Prisco said... The results of this incident are easy to predict. Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. Of course they'll shut up for fear of losing their job and the means to support their family. But they won't change their position. If anythi…

Didn't read his memo, am not interested in the debate, and am not saying he should be fired or kept.

That said, I'd think that he was fired not because of his opinions, but because he seems to have done an irreparable damage to Google's image: for good or bad reasons, people will react strongly and negatively to the publication of his memo, and whatever Google does -- keeps him or lets him go -- this negative impact will stick.

EDIT: many, many people will react negatively.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#244

Post by fiblye »

Const-me wrote: post #113

IMO the best comment from there: Giulio Prisco said... The results of this incident are easy to predict. Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. Of course they'll shut up for fear of losing their job and the means to support their family. But they won't change their position. If anythi…

And when the consequences become obvious, the media will continue to complain about how shitty Western men are and how we need to crack down on them hard and fast.

And it'll just keep snowballing, unless people realize we need to stop and try talking with people we disagree with, instead of doing our best to crush their every outlet to express themselves before they grow bitter and reactionary.

The media can't stop talking about how the internet is "dangerous" because men are being radicalized on it and we don't know why. It's more of a "no shit" situation due them having to hide their every against-the-grain opinion in real life. But yeah, let's start sending the police in on dumb shit that people say on Twitter. [1] That'll really make people reconsider their opinions and not further rationalize their anger.

[1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/arrests-for-offensive-f...

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#245

Post by js8 »

timgrahamtech wrote: post #222
Const-me wrote: post #113

IMO the best comment from there: Giulio Prisco said... The results of this incident are easy to predict. Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. Of course they'll shut up for fear of losing their job and the means to support their family. But they won't change their position. If anythi…

Then the goal is making him understand that he got fired for how he expressed those opinions. He didn't just talk to HR or his manager, he published a rant for all the world to see making it the CEO's problem. Anyone who publishes an incoherent 10 page manifesto insulting their coworkers and trashing their company's policies can reasonably expect to get fired. It doesn't matter if any of the bosses agree or disagree…

"Anyone who publishes an incoherent 10 page manifesto insulting their coworkers and trashing their company's policies can reasonably expect to get fired. It doesn't matter if any of the bosses agree or disagree with the opinions expressed; it's just an unprofessional thing to do."

I agree completely. Just like these guys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_77

Very unprofessional!

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#246

Post by gibberfish »

cm2187 wrote: post #227
KirinDave wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He says women will benefit from making coding more social. Pair programming. Remember?

Whether we agree with the memo or not, there was a very good point that guy made and that we should keep in mind, it's the paragraph with the two overlapping distributions. Even if you admit that all genders, races, any way you want to segment the population, do not have the same distribution, that doesn't mean anything to a person as an individual. For instance I think it's fair to say that black people are better a…

That argument applies to the general population maybe, but that doesn't mean it also applies to the population of Google employees. Everyone there passed their hiring standards, so everyone has proved their individual merit already.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#247

Post by Cthulhu_ »

toyg wrote: post #206
_b8r0 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made the grave mistake of trying to express that point on Twitter. Twitter seems to be a poor vehicle for nuanced debate at the best of time, but it's a dumpster fire right now full of raging people who don't understand what you've just said. I was in SV last year for a couple of months during the election, and everyone I met were all paid up members of the church of political correctness up front, but when you spo…

> Twitter seems to be a poor vehicle for nuanced debate at the best of time Understatement of the century. How on earth can you expect to have "nuanced debate" with only 140 characters?

Plus the fact that the 140 characters are done from a soapbox with possibly tens of thousands of people ready to pounce on it.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#248

Post by int_19h »

timgrahamtech wrote: post #222
Const-me wrote: post #113

IMO the best comment from there: Giulio Prisco said... The results of this incident are easy to predict. Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. Of course they'll shut up for fear of losing their job and the means to support their family. But they won't change their position. If anythi…

Then the goal is making him understand that he got fired for how he expressed those opinions. He didn't just talk to HR or his manager, he published a rant for all the world to see making it the CEO's problem. Anyone who publishes an incoherent 10 page manifesto insulting their coworkers and trashing their company's policies can reasonably expect to get fired. It doesn't matter if any of the bosses agree or disagree…

In one of the previous discussions, it was said that it was published in an internal social network, in a group that was specifically dedicated to diversity hiring at Google. Is that incorrect?

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#249

Post by generic_user »

michaelchisari wrote: post #195
generic_user wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the skills that you listed only start to really matter if you try to move into a management position. No company or project wants rank and file programmers (which is the vast majority of any project) who think there also managers and act as such. Even if you have those skill your job is to focus on your tasks and solve your very specific problems, not the big picture and what everyone else is doing.

I emphatically disagree. All of those skills are necessary to be a strong team member, and thinking that only management requires them is to move into territory where programming as a trade is in need of micro-management and social babysitting by a managerial class. I've been in plenty of teams that were extremely flat exactly because the programmers in those teams were all highly skilled in those areas.

Its a question of degree. Yes you have to have 'some' people skills to be a programmer in a team but its a small amount of skill. In a group of people that probably has more in common with you than any other group you have to interact with in life.

But its much less people skills then a manager, in meetings most of the day resolving issues that are much higher level that involve different departments etc.

So your average programming job is well within the social skills of the vast majority of Men. When your evaluating a pool of potential hires its going to be 95% finding the best programmer and then the last 5% is making sure there not crazy or a drug addict etc.

Its never going to be the case that you start out with a pool of resumes from people with really nice personal bios and try and find out which ones can program a computer.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#250

Post by GVIrish »

maehwasu wrote: post #226
GVIrish wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. This is an example of people taking exactly the wrong lesson from this situation. The guy wasn't fired for having a 'dissenting opinion'. He was fired because he basically said women are underrepresented in IT because they are biologically unsu…

"You can say anything you want, unless you're saying something that I choose to define as unacceptable."

When has that ever not been the case in the workplace? Every workplace has norms and values where someone who runs afoul of them may be fired.

Norms change over time. There was a time when it would've been okay to use the 'n' word to insult black people in many work places, now it's not okay. There was a time when lewd and demeaning talk about women was ok in the workplace, now it's not.

The people who sign the checks have always been able to define what is and is not acceptable in the workplace. Some people are feeling caught out because the line has moved, but it has always been there.

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