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Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

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Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#181

Post by therebedragons »

KirinDave wrote: post #162
nailer wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the same thing as telling an individual they're less capable.

Why? What positive connotation could be drawn from it?

> What positive connotation could be drawn from it?

IMHO that is the wrong question. Connotations aren't something anyone can argue for or against - one can have bad connotations for all sorts of words. Actual example: my ex hated the word "negotiate" in any personal discussion as she saw negotiations as something where you tried to screw the other person over (she was a lawyer). This was to the point where she refused to negotiate anything - including where we would have dinner. How can anyone live without negotiating? Hence, ex :)

I think a better question than one about connotations would be:

If we accept that women have a preference for people over things, what would encourage women to want to do a "things" job? The memo's answer: more peer programming i.e. adding a people element to a things/systems job. That is internally consistent, I think, with the evidence presented on average female preference.

Honestly, I find all this inferior/superior talk really troubling. Different != inferior, or superior, it is just DIFFERENT. Is a hammer a better tool than a saw? Depends what I want to do... I find it even more troubling that people against labelling others superior/inferior see everything that way. Personally, I think vive la difference!

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#182

Post by chmike »

The main problem is that stupidity is mainstream. The guy was fired not because of what he wrote, but because the stupid people criticized google and google can't afford to fight against the stupid people. This is a fight one can't win alone. Google's goal is to make money, not to make people less stupid.

Now regarding the firering, the lesson to learn is not that one should stop saying that the king is naked when it is. One should use anonymizer because the stupid people are still dominating the population.

The focus of making money of capitalizm is nurturing stupidity in the population because it makes business so simpler. (e.g. junk food consuming) Things need to change.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#183

Post by _b8r0 »

Const-me wrote: post #113

IMO the best comment from there: Giulio Prisco said... The results of this incident are easy to predict. Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. Of course they'll shut up for fear of losing their job and the means to support their family. But they won't change their position. If anythi…

I made the grave mistake of trying to express that point on Twitter. Twitter seems to be a poor vehicle for nuanced debate at the best of time, but it's a dumpster fire right now full of raging people who don't understand what you've just said.

I was in SV last year for a couple of months during the election, and everyone I met were all paid up members of the church of political correctness up front, but when you spoke to these people in private there were a lot of people who were secretly conservative, but "It's Silicon Valley and you can't be a Republican out here".

I'm reminded of Chomsky's words in his book, The Common Good:

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum"

Where things have gone drastically wrong here are that the spectrum is now so tiny that any debate within that spectrum is now impossible. It becomes almost impossible to depolarize the situation and widen that spectrum, and that's going to lead to everything you more eloquently put above, if not more.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#184

Post by panda88888 »

michaelchisari wrote: post #172
Const-me wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very likely you’re right about the current state of alt right movement (I live in Europe and haven’t been monitoring the subject). But GP only mentioned alt-rights as an example of where might the voters turn their preferences. Even at Google where James worked, many employees agree with his memo (36%), and the majority, 54% of them think the memo is harmless and was OK to share: https://basicgestalt.wordpress.com/20…

For the life of me, I cannot find a legitimate source for that poll. I see the image popping up on a lot of less-than-reputable websites (wordpress blogs, tweets, businessinsider, etc) but no actual source for it, let alone any idea of its methodology.

Since it's allegedly Google internal poll, you probably won't find more information on it beyond screenshot. After what happened to Damore and calls for his supporters to be fired as well, most people are probably clamming up now.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#186

Post by dandare »

Const-me wrote: post #113

IMO the best comment from there: Giulio Prisco said... The results of this incident are easy to predict. Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. Of course they'll shut up for fear of losing their job and the means to support their family. But they won't change their position. If anythi…

I totally agree, this will add tons of ammunition to all kinds of sexists, racists and extremists. Damore made several well sourced arguments that you are welcome to disagree with. But instead of discussion, counter arguments and "embracing diversity" he was silenced and probably illegally sacked. This will strengthen the position of all kind of haters and populists and if you think it's not a big deal, yes, go and check who is your president.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#187

Post by michaelchisari »

panda88888 wrote: post #184
michaelchisari wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the life of me, I cannot find a legitimate source for that poll. I see the image popping up on a lot of less-than-reputable websites (wordpress blogs, tweets, businessinsider, etc) but no actual source for it, let alone any idea of its methodology.

Since it's allegedly Google internal poll, you probably won't find more information on it beyond screenshot. After what happened to Damore and calls for his supporters to be fired as well, most people are probably clamming up now.

I can't say that inspires confidence that the poll is even legitimate. Do we at least have proof that it actually was an internal Google poll and not someone's 15 minutes in photoshop?

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#188

Post by OscarCunningham »

mathw wrote: post #171
axlprose wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or even if the number of women just stays the same. Is the effort to level the playing field then deemed a 'failure' if the results don't change in the way they're expected to? That's the important question here, especially since there have now been preliminary experiments in tech interviews suggesting such an outcome is not implausible: http://blog.interviewing.io/we-built-voice-modulation-to-mas...

If you've removed possible bias from your hiring process, then you have to accept an imbalance is either a result of uneven retention inclusive-or something operating earlier in the process of training your candidates. The point is to remove as many obstacles as possible. We want the best to get the jobs, but if the are barriers based on gender or race or religion that's potentially denying us a brilliant woman, or b…

If 50/50 isn't the target, how will we know when we get there?

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#189

Post by SidiousL »

Const-me wrote: post #113

IMO the best comment from there: Giulio Prisco said... The results of this incident are easy to predict. Now everyone at Google (and everyone in large tech companies, and everyone in academy) knows that they can be fired for expressing opinions that dissent from the party line. Of course they'll shut up for fear of losing their job and the means to support their family. But they won't change their position. If anythi…

It's funny how some companies now literally enforce a "don't ask don't tell" policy when it comes to some points of view. In the academia it is probably even worse than in the industry. Except this time, it's the left that is "promoting" hiding your true self.

You may say that for the army it was the government doing it, which makes it worse. In a sense I agree. However, in the case of private employers it touches on a more consequential right for us as a society: the right to free speech.

Maybe people should be more accepting of somebody's views on controversial topics as diversity, gun rights and abortion, as they are to gay people in the military.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#190

Post by generic_user »

michaelchisari wrote: post #118
mberning wrote: post #13

I like the discussion. I think the point about software being significantly "people centric" is a bit off base and betrays the authors lack of experience in the field. Working with people is certainly part of the job and in some roles maybe a large portion of the work. Being a good communicator is an important part of being a good developer, but it doesn't make you a good developer. Being a talented and experienced p…

Being a talented and experienced programmer may be the foundation, but the ability to communicate complex ideas in accessible ways, to read the room and respond to non-verbal cues, to put aside ego, to collaborate and coordinate, to sense frustration or unhappiness in your team, without those, you don't get past the first few stories of a skyscraper. The longer I'm in the field, the more I work with different teams,…

Most of the skills that you listed only start to really matter if you try to move into a management position.

No company or project wants rank and file programmers (which is the vast majority of any project) who think there also managers and act as such. Even if you have those skill your job is to focus on your tasks and solve your very specific problems, not the big picture and what everyone else is doing.

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