Live data from Hacker News

Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts

plasma.io

81–90 of 150 posts

Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts

#81
post #65
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole "disruption of silicon valley" from a financing perspective is pretty compelling no? Even it smart contracts on ethereum are used for nothing other than the facilitation crowdfunding coin offerings, it would still have "shebang".

I can agree with you on the fact that ICOs have been the first actual "killer application" for Ethereum. But they only work because they're based on another lie. People buy into these ICOs because they get tokens that they assume to increase in value. It's basically a "get rich quick" scheme. It worked an astounding number of times, and once people caught up on that, the value of Ether started to skyrocket as everyon…

[deleted]

Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts

#82
post #79
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the sharded example, only the shard suffers a break down, not the entire network, if the nodes collude. It also allows people to run smaller nodes on cheap hardware, this increasing the potential number of nodes in the network.

What’s the effect of a single shard breaking down? How many shards need to break down before it causes a problem?

Well the breakdown of a share has differing effects depending on the consensus rules, same for the entire network. I can't answer that unless you specify which consensus we are talking about.

Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts

#83
post #72
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does every crypto thread have these vacuous comments? Normally adding a "I agree" comment is met with "use the arrow". Maybe we could come up with a "HN law of crypto" that states all articles must be met with "paper money works just fine" or "just another tulip scheme". It seems asking for constructive criticism is out of the question due to the ideological motivations behind the criticisms.

I think it's because it is both hard to understand and hard to explain cryptocurrencies at the moment. It's like discussing email or social networks based on papers and ideas without really ever having seen it in action. We tend to get a bit aggressive or impatient when we find it hard to explain something. Also, crypto skeptics realise that the crypto fans literally have money at stake so they are not unbiased. Mayb…

"Crypto" isn't binary. There's a gold nugget in there somewhere buried under a literal mountain of (occasionally willful) disinformation, flimsy whitepapers and opportunistic ICOs that can best be described as Ponzi schemes. Spend any amount of time on bitcointalk or any of the altcoin subreddits to see what I'm talking about.

That - IMO - is what "crypto skeptics" are actually skeptical of.

Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts

#84
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With LN you can do a lot of extremely cheap payments. The cost of transactions on a Lightning Network has yet to be determined, because no working LN (with merchants accepting payments) exists yet. We all agree than LN is pretty fast, but the ultimate test is cost per transaction. Allow me to remind you that if you want to send 1 BTC through 10 LN nodes, each of these 10 LN nodes need to bind 1 BTC in a payment cha…

Right, LN nodes will eventually become big speciallized hubs, with great BTC capacity to attend as many channels as possible. Each channel is a source of revenue for the LN node, so LN nodes will try to become as big as possible (both technically and BTC-wise) to cope with greater audience. Think that in a LN-node the profit will be proportional to capacity of open channels, so its very probable that we will see very…

Let’s imagine an LN network with 1,000 payers all connecting to one, single LN hub, which routes all payments to a single payee (merchant).

How will the on-blockchain settlement transaction look like? It needs to redeem all 1,000 outputs provided by the payers, because each payer creates a new output when it funds a channel, which creates a huge settlement transaction (1,000 inputs) with a correspondingly huge fee.

How does LN get around this issue?

Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts

#86

Community at HN does not like Wolfram; on the issue of Oracles/Human input @ cryptosystems, he is spot on on the solution as he has had first hand experience with Wolfram|Alpha being used as an oracle by smart contracts (the whole post is amazing btw): http://blog.stephenwolfram.com/2016/10/computational-law-sym... And so it is with bitcoin, Ethereum, etc. The idea is that some particular thing that happened (“X paid…

TL/DR version: AI to the rescue!

If there's one thing I really hate about all this machine-learning/AI scene it is this "Have a seemingly unsolvable problem? Don't worry, just let an AI that you don't understand and can't debug fix it for you!" silver-bullet mentality.

Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts

#87

Smart contracts are being suggested as the building block of "autonomous corporations" (implying "do anything!") yet nearly anything meaningful basically has to interact with the real world through agents external to the contract for most business cases. Given this severe limitation, could someone clarify what the whole shebang is supposed to be about? I actually saw Vitalik speak last week or so here in Shenzhen cam…

> In short, adding a decentralized network of paid/incentivized actors to any existing potential cryptographic problem space (a fair rough summary of the smart contract notion?), in particular the subset relevant for most businesses, doesn't seem to solve anything particularly well and typically decreases critical measures of engineering elegance such as simplicity, comprehensibility, predictability, etc. while increasing negative measures such as technical lock-in to piles of rapidly evolving technologies for which hiring and building is expensive and error-prone.

You could say very much the same thing about most supply-side innovations when they came out. Why buy a factory machine when your workers do it just fine? It's complicated, error-prone, you'll have to hire expensive, specialized mechanics to deal with it when it breaks down. It decreases measures of engineering elegance, like simplicity, comprehensibility and predictability. All the locking you into that vendor with a massive upfront capital cost.

Smart contracts eliminate trusted third parties (sometimes) and automate certain processes that previously couldn't be automated due to trust issues, or were automated but centralized (with the aggregating entity extracting rents). Fixing these things will reduce transaction costs globally, just as factory automation did.

Will it solve everything? No, at least not soon. Will it eliminate lawyers, courts, and so on? Not even close. But it will do some things. Things like escrow, notarization, and assurance contracts (e.g. kickstarter) are all easily amenable to blockchain / smart contract solutions. Prediction markets are another good one.

My point is basically this: People have been making unbelievably grandiose claims about cryptocurrencies. And those claims are, largely, bullshit. However, there are some things that they do very well, and they are starting to do them.

Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts

#88
post #46

Plasma is already the name of KDE's desktop interface. Reusing the name of an already known project is confusing.

Finding a good name is hard, especially if you want a single word. Going with "Plasma Contacts" or something similar would easily remove the ambiguity.

Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking the same thing over the last few months... I see all of these "prediction markets" and "gambling platforms" being launched and claiming that they are "fully autonomous". Well where do they get the outcome information from? It must be from a person. You cannot program a smart contract to know who has the most reliable sports scores or political information. AI does not exist yet. If I bet that Hilla…

> You cannot program a smart contract to know who has the most reliable sports scores or political information. You can't do that as a human, either. All you can really do is look at someone's record to see how their predictions have panned out historically. Given the right data sources, a program could do this no problem, and assign metrics to individual sports commentators as well as subsets of their consensus on a…

It seems like you're talking about predictions, but the point of "reliable sports scores or political information" is about a trusted source about past/current facts.

People have no problem verifying the bet results of yesterday's game or last year's elections. However, making a blockchain that can't possibly be manipulated into thinking that Clinton won the election (no pitchforks needed, you're misleading a single automated system, not everyone else) is actually much harder than it seems - especially if the decisions are enforced by the system, final and irreversible and can't be overruled by courts if it's found to be fraudulent afterwards.

Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts

#90
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very glad to see this is being recognized more and more. Technically strong people can see it, but there are legions of ethereum fans who cannot.

Why does every crypto thread have these vacuous comments? Normally adding a "I agree" comment is met with "use the arrow". Maybe we could come up with a "HN law of crypto" that states all articles must be met with "paper money works just fine" or "just another tulip scheme". It seems asking for constructive criticism is out of the question due to the ideological motivations behind the criticisms.

Because in the blockchain and cryptocurrency space the hype is so intense that having people who can see through all of it to discuss the pros and cons of these systems is a breath of fresh air.

This announcement is the perfect example. People in the Ethereum community blindly celebrate everything that those in the limelight put out without really understanding it. I.e. most scalability proposals have trade-offs between security, flexibility, and a range of other factors. It so happens that the Plasma proposal has negative security trade-offs -- what a surprise.

The main utility of a blockchain comes from the extremely inefficient means that it imposes costs on its participants to improve security and social scalability. It is trivial to produce a scheme that will improve a blockchains scalability at the expense of security but most people in the Ethereum community have no deeper understanding of the issue than "YAY, GO VITALIK!! AWESOMEEEE GOOD TO SEE SOMEONE SCALING HERPA DERP, PLASMA SOUNDS WAY COOOL!!!"

Hang around in the Ethereum space long enough and you'll also notice the tendency for Ethereum startups to self-cite each other like some kind of recursive circle-jerk of ignorance. Seriously, a lot of these white papers have no basis in reality. I've read white papers that even fail to understand the most basic aspects of economics. A lot of these papers are absolute jokes clearly written by people with no experience solving any of the problems they aim to solve yet only those with technical knowledge can see this.

It would require whole books just to point out the myriad of flaws with these designs. And you know what - in the end it wouldn't matter because no one cares about how these systems work. The average person is only in it to make money which means that anyone who tries to point out a flaw is attacked by investors who probably don't even know what a blockchain is. The space is actually a really toxic place if you want to discuss any of its negative qualities.

Post reply on HN