Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sharding intents to solve this by splitting the billion messages into a 1000 (or more) smaller problem space. Thusly only requiring 1 VM per node. (tho you need more nodes for equivalent security)
Maybe my imagination is too limited, but I fail to see how sharding is any different from just reducing the number of nodes in the P2P network.
Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts
61–70 of 150 posts
Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts
#62Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts
#63The emperor has no clothes, or at very best is parading around the street in a loincloth made up of cryptocurrency whitepapers.
I'm very glad to see this is being recognized more and more. Technically strong people can see it, but there are legions of ethereum fans who cannot.
Maybe we could come up with a "HN law of crypto" that states all articles must be met with "paper money works just fine" or "just another tulip scheme".
It seems asking for constructive criticism is out of the question due to the ideological motivations behind the criticisms.
Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts
#64http://blog.stephenwolfram.com/2016/10/computational-law-sym...
And so it is with bitcoin, Ethereum, etc. The idea is that some particular thing that happened (“X paid Y such-and-such” or whatever) is shared and recorded in so many places that there can’t be any doubt about it. Yes, it’s in principle possible that all the few thousand places that actually participate in something like bitcoin today could collude to give a fake result. But the idea is that it’s like with gas molecules in a room: the probability is inconceivably small. (As it happens, my Principle of Computational Equivalence suggests that there’s more than an analogy with the gas molecules, and that actually the underlying principles at work are basically exactly the same. And, yes, there are lots of interesting technical details about the operation of distributed blockchain ledgers, distributed consensus protocols, etc., but I’m not going to get into them here.) It’s popular these days to talk about “smart contracts”. When I’ve been talking about “computational contracts” I mean contracts that can be expressed computationally. But by “smart contracts” people usually mean contracts that can both be expressed computationally and execute automatically. Most often the idea is to set up a smart contract in a distributed computation environment like Ethereum, and then to have the code in the contract evaluate based on inputs from the computation environment. Sometimes the input is intrinsic—like the passage of time (who could possibly tamper with the clock of the whole internet?), or physically generated random numbers. And in cases like this, one has fairly pure smart contracts, say for paying subscriptions, or for running distributed lotteries. But more often there has to be some input from the outside—from something that happens in the world. Sometimes one just needs public information: the price of a stock, the temperature at a weather station, or a seismic event like a nuclear explosion. But somehow the smart contract needs access to an “oracle” that can give it this information. And conveniently enough, there is one good such oracle available in the world: Wolfram|Alpha. And indeed Wolfram|Alpha is becoming widely used as an oracle for smart contracts. (Yes, our general public terms of service say you currently just shouldn’t rely on Wolfram|Alpha for anything you consider critical—though hopefully soon those terms of service will get more sophisticated, and computational.) But what about non-public information from the outside world? The current thinking for smart contracts tends to be that one has to get humans in the loop to verify the information: that in effect one has to have a jury (or a democracy) to decide whether something is true. But is that really the best one can do? I tend to suspect there’s another path, that’s like using machine learning to inject human-like judgment into things. Yes, one can use people, with all their inscrutable and hard-to-systematically-influence behavior. But what if one replaces those people in effect by AIs—or even a collection of today’s machine-learning systems? One can think of a machine-learning system as being a bit like a cryptosystem. To attack it and spoof its input one has to do something like inverting how it works. Well, given a single machine-learning system there’s a certain effort needed to achieve this. But if one has a whole collection of sufficiently independent systems, the effort goes up. It won’t be good enough just to change a few parameters in the system. But if one just goes out into the computational universe and picks systems at random then I think one can expect to have the same kind of independence as by having different people. (To be fair, I don’t yet quite know how to apply the mining of the computational universe that I’ve done for programs like cellular automata to the case of systems like neural nets.) There’s another point as well: if one has a sufficiently dense net of sensors in the world, then it becomes increasingly easy to be sure about what’s happened. If there’s just one motion sensor in a room, it might be easy to cover it. And maybe even if there are several sensors, it’s still possible to avoid them, Mission Impossible-style. But if there are enough sensors, then by synthesizing information from them one can inevitably build up an understanding of what actually happened. In effect, one has a model of how the world works, and with enough sensors one can validate that the model is correct. It’s not surprising, but it always helps to have redundancy. More nodes to ensure the computation isn’t tampered with. More machine-learning algorithms to make sure they aren’t spoofed. More sensors to make sure they’re not fooled. But in the end, there has to be something that says what should happen—what the contract is. And the contract has to be expressed in some language in which there are definite concepts. So somehow from the various redundant systems one has in the world, one has to make a definite conclusion—one has to turn the world into something symbolic, on which the contract can operate.
Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is no shebang. I haven't found a decent use case for smart contracts either. I'm no hawk but "coin" seems less than fiat to me.
This whole "disruption of silicon valley" from a financing perspective is pretty compelling no? Even it smart contracts on ethereum are used for nothing other than the facilitation crowdfunding coin offerings, it would still have "shebang".
People buy into these ICOs because they get tokens that they assume to increase in value. It's basically a "get rich quick" scheme. It worked an astounding number of times, and once people caught up on that, the value of Ether started to skyrocket as everyone and their grandmothers wanted to have a piece of the cake.
Why did the tokens increase in value? Because enough people believed in the "visions" of the startups behind the ICOs, which usually weave some story about future utility of the specific token into their business case precisely to make people think that these tokens will one day be more than just a speculation object. Once enough people believed that, the tokens became extremely good speculation objects, as they were growing in value, and that made people get rich quick, which made Ether skyrocket, which made more people get rich quick. See last paragraph. But the important takeaway is: you need that perceived utility value to kickstart this entire sequence of events!
Okay, so why are the tokens supposed to have any utility value besides being speculation objects? Because the startups have business models centered around Ethereum and smart contracts and of course utilizing their token that they intend to grow into a real business. If you now assume - just as you yourself have stipulated - that smart contracts on Ethereum are used for nothing other than the facilitation of crowdfunding coin offerings, this means that any other business model is assumed to fail. This in turn means that all those tokens have no utility value whatsoever. This in turn means that they eventually lose their speculative value, which is based on people believing in them one day having utility value. It will probably take a while, since beliefs can be strong and masses of people tend to be dumb, but eventually it will happen. This in turn means that crowdsourcing yet another useless and worthless token won't work, since why should anybody invest anything into it? And this finally ruins the nice killer application of crowdfunding via ICOs.
Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe my imagination is too limited, but I fail to see how sharding is any different from just reducing the number of nodes in the P2P network.
Because Sharding also lessens the load on each individual node. A single node does not need to process everything
If we shard the data, such that each node only needs to process 10 transactions per second — while trusting the remaining nodes on the other 990 transactions — how is this different from just reducing the number of nodes to 10, and having each node process all 1,000 transactions?
In both cases the entire network only needs to process 10,000 transactions per second, and in both cases the network breaks down if 10 or more nodes collude.
Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts
#67The emperor has no clothes, or at very best is parading around the street in a loincloth made up of cryptocurrency whitepapers.
Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm very glad to see this is being recognized more and more. Technically strong people can see it, but there are legions of ethereum fans who cannot.
Why does every crypto thread have these vacuous comments? Normally adding a "I agree" comment is met with "use the arrow". Maybe we could come up with a "HN law of crypto" that states all articles must be met with "paper money works just fine" or "just another tulip scheme". It seems asking for constructive criticism is out of the question due to the ideological motivations behind the criticisms.
With the way technology is going it would seem everything would be connected to the web and this idea of decentralized apps that require crypto, I'd like to be in on that... the "millionaires" that came about from bitcoin, that's nice but are you saying the tulip scheme is going to be the end result of crypto?
I'm asking because I don't know. I'm buying it solely for FOMO
Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
What about Kickstarter? A $500 million+ company that takes a 5% vig on all transacted funds can effectively be replaced with a few lines of code. If total ETH sent to contract address by date X > Amount Y then send the ETH to the fundraiser, else return the ETH.
You do know people can launch a crowdfunding project that is decentralized, They don't need an ICO or blockchain, just a website. But there is a reason people don't do that, something to do with the value centralized platforms provide. Plus I'm not entirely sure anyone should trust smart contracts to actually perform such a function, next thing you know someone other than the project created takes all the funds pursu…
Re: Plasma: Scalable Autonomous Smart Contracts
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because Sharding also lessens the load on each individual node. A single node does not need to process everything
Let’s say we have 1,000 nodes in a network that does 1,000 transactions per second. If we shard the data, such that each node only needs to process 10 transactions per second — while trusting the remaining nodes on the other 990 transactions — how is this different from just reducing the number of nodes to 10, and having each node process all 1,000 transactions? In both cases the entire network only needs to process…